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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:30 am 
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Location: Portland, OR, US
All of the terns are problematic, "vinyl" is not inclusive of shellacs, "LP" does not cover 78s or 45s, "record" is a generic term that includes all formats CD and cassette included.

Right now im listening to some Beach Boys vinyls and remembering the good old days when these were not issues.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:12 am 
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Location: Brownsburg, IN, US
viridian2 wrote:
All of the terns are problematic, "vinyl" is not inclusive of shellacs, "LP" does not cover 78s or 45s, "record" is a generic term that includes all formats CD and cassette included.

Right now im listening to some Beach Boys vinyls and remembering the good old days when these were not issues.


And the plural of vinyl is vinyl.

As the words "vinyls" is used so frequently on audio forums, it should be noted. That's for those who aren't aware.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Yes, its fun to use the term and piss off the old geezers and English majors. Im listening to some fab Suzanne Vega vinyls right now.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 am 
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Location: Reno, NV, US
Depending the Record, vinyl, wax, LP, shellac, flexi, 7, 10, 12” DJ single..etc lol...if it’s mic’d, recorded, mixed, mastered by shite, no medium will make it sound well.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:30 am 
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Location: Hudson, NH, US
Here are some measurement-based "advantages" of vinyl playback compared to digital playback:

1. higher noise floor, top and bottom of frequency extremes, that increases with playback cycles

2. higher distortion across the board that increases with playback cycles

3. much lower channel separation that is frequency dependent

4. worse transient response due to the moving mass of a stylus

5. lower dynamic headroom

6. much higher level of amplification required, coupled with equalization to boost lows and cut highs


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:20 am 
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Location: Hubley, NS, CA
fourchords wrote:
Here are some measurement-based "advantages" of vinyl playback compared to digital playback:

1. higher noise floor, top and bottom of frequency extremes, that increases with playback cycles

2. higher distortion across the board that increases with playback cycles

3. much lower channel separation that is frequency dependent

4. worse transient response due to the moving mass of a stylus

5. lower dynamic headroom

6. much higher level of amplification required, coupled with equalization to boost lows and cut highs


This man speaks the inconvenient truth of vinyl(s) as a playback medium. Digital has come of age


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Location: Norfolk, VA, US
As I see it a poor recording is a poor recording, regardless of the format. I recently took the plunge back into vinyl and it is so much fun, looking/finding great deals on records, setting up/tweaking my table and simply watching the arm interact with the album. I have repurchased most of my all time favorite albums, but I would never dream of giving up CD's or streaming music totally. Tidal Hifi my Chord Mojo and favorite can's provide me with an intimacy and level of detail no speaker/table or CDP combo can approach. However, vinyl conveys the soul of the music and that's what makes me happiest.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 am 
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Location: Bernardsville, NJ, US
Like everyone else, I have gone full circle as well. My preferred listening is done with good quality records, on my VPI/Ortofon/Rogue vinyl system. I agree 100% with the OP - even bad vinyl is better than good digital, when played back on decent equipment. I do think that some of this is lost when you go with some of the cheaper gear out there - the U-Turns with built in phono amps, or worse yet, a Crossley. I'm sure this has turned off many a budding vinylholic.

For quicker listening sessions, or when I'm just plain lazy, I now have a Sony HAP Z1ES which I have uploaded with all of my hi-res downloads and lots of my old CD collection (most of which resides in my basement). It's good to hear some of those old albums again, and I can get CDs so cheaply that it makes for sense for albums I'm kind of "meh" on, as opposed to picking up a vinyl reissue.

I'm starting to think, however, that the idea combo is the TT for serious listening, and a high quality streamer with a Tidal HiFi subscription for $20/month. It sounds amazing through a good DAC, and honestly, why do you need to own digital if you own what you really love on vinyl anyway? So much more convenient, it's always there, and new releases are instantaneous. $240 a year is cheap in the scheme of this hobby, although a rental for life with nothing to show for it at the end is a bitter pill.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:33 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA, US
sheabatter wrote:
when I was about 16 I had a turntable and purchased vinyl, when i was 20 i traded all my vinyl :( for cds and portable devices because that is what was popular. 18 months ago when i was 51 I started listening to vinyl again, closely because I am recording some of my friends collection to see if i could answer the title question definitively for myself.. I now have 6 well respected well used phono cartridges (shure denon AT- jico / original etc) and have had over a year to experiment with 50s'60s70s vinyl and some current releases, recording levels, pre amp gain, mm/mc etc etc.

when i listen to one of my digital recordings of my friends vinyl (that is an original release good pressing/mix blah blah) its all he collects)

compared to an industry standard release cd, my recording sounds MUCH MUCH better.

30 years listening to digital exclusively and 18 months listening to vinyl closely (very closely) and vinyl wins for me no question.

and if I get a particularly good (clean LP, clean stylus, cartridge aligned correctly etc) digital recording of vinyl, it captures about 92% maybe 94% of what actually playing the LP gives me, tone and transparency and separation wise,

I've never worried much about 'image' but occasionally i will clearly hear a cowbell outside my car,

at 75 mph !!!! :D
Well after traveling down the analog road for over a decade I have finally found the sound of EAC ripped CD's better in every way. It was not easy to beat near sota analog - but it can be done with some effort. And the results are truly remarkable, with just the same vinyl tonal richness, but with a dark black noise floor, much tighter deeper bass and truly outstanding image focus and clarity. And a consistent sound from start to finish - not that last tracks at the end of LP hashiness.

And when I say I pursued vinyl - I mean in a most intense manner. Owning over 20 different turntables and about a dozen different cartridges. My turntable collection included 4 different Rega's, culminating in the P9/RB1000. But also a number of VPI's the best I had being the VPI Super ScoutMaster signature. On the cartridge front owning several Koetsu MC's, a number of Benz including the outstanding Ebony LP, and Dynavector MC's including the XV1S. And so many other Denon's and Ortofon's to mention. A dozen different solid state and tube phono pre-amps, Bent Audio Silver step up transformers, etc...All this run through a $40k system. My vinyl collection was mostly virgin 200gm and 180gm pressings, including almost all the Classic Records 200gm QUIEX SV-P - the quietest most dynamic pressings I have ever heard. Now commanding huge premiums on Ebay.
Attachment:
old setup.JPG
old setup.JPG [ 331.72 KiB | Viewed 665 times ]

Attachment:
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download (5).jpg [ 43.76 KiB | Viewed 665 times ]


For many years digital just could not compare - but recently with some amazing digital chain breakthroughs - not only does my digital PC based music chain compare to the best analog systems I've heard. It absolutely trounces it.

For more info see this USAM thread I started and the threads on HF I started to discuss the key to sota digital reproduction.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172
This thread I believe has more views (around 170,000 so far) then all the other USAM threads combined.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/usb-str ... me.829639/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/usb-str ... me.829639/

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:42 am 
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Location: Brownsburg, IN, US
Supernova wrote:
However, vinyl conveys the soul of the music and that's what makes me happiest.


This kind of statement floors me. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten the "soul" of the music through a crappy AM radio. I remember as a young teen, sitting in the car in a grocery store parking lot waiting for my mom, hearing The Beatles sing We Can Work It Out. Or another time my mom was driving us home after visiting the dentist and Like A Rolling Stone came on. The song starts, I'm stunned, and she pulls in the garage and shuts the car off...I jump out, run in and turn on the console, find the station, and sit in front of it enraptured until the song finishes.
The :soul" is in the music, not the medium.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:59 am 
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Location: Port Coquitlam, BC, CA
timrhu wrote:
The :soul" is in the music, not the medium.


Couldn't agree more.

Bottom line on vinyl vs CD (or even better quality high resolution formats) is that vinyl is a distortion minefield by comparison. But, it does have a "character" that is enjoyable to listen to, and I've always liked it. Like many I also enjoy the tactile experience of playing vinyl periodically.
I don't think there's much of a "debate".. you can't really debate personal preference, which is what the OP is opining.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:40 am 
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Location: santa cruz, CA, US
same ol same ol i guess,
this discussion has been going on via the www for many many years.

one more question I have,

If an LP was originally released in 1971 , and a person can find a REALLY good rare/collectible pressing of it, to record.
then you go and and buy an 'industry standard' release of the same LP on CD
Would your home made recording of the excellent pressing sound better then the industry standard release?

In my experience over the last 2 years, the answer is definitively,

yes.

*but I'm not exactly sure why ?

_________________
"Perhaps wiping the grime of 1000 LPs' across the surface of the one I was about to record/play is not the best idea"


Last edited by sheabatter on Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:58 am
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Location: nmb, FL, US
mostly virgin 200gm and 180gm pressings, including almost all the Classic Records 200gm QUIEX SV-P

THIS was your only problem with your vinyl rig..every single vinyl you owned was a FAKE OF TRUE ANALOG VINYL.
sorry...any 60s or 70s regular original pressing(in some circumstances re-issues)..will destroy your audiophile pressings....i wont belabor or get into full detail as to why...i do know a guy who would love to explain it to you any time.you can email him..tom port(more an expert than me ) google his name. i DO NOT buy from him..i just know the same obvious thing..todays " audiophile presses are usually just not even close to the real thing...plain hard fact..peace andy


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:18 am 
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Location: Surprise, AZ, US
sharethemusic wrote:
mostly virgin 200gm and 180gm pressings, including almost all the Classic Records 200gm QUIEX SV-P

any 60s or 70s regular original pressing(in some circumstances re-issues)..will destroy your audiophile pressings....i wont belabor or get into full detail as to why...i do know a guy who would love to explain it to you any time.you can email him..tom port(more an expert than me ) google his name. i DO NOT buy from him..i just know the same obvious thing..todays " audiophile presses are usually just not even close to the real thing...plain hard fact..peace andy


You do realize why they have to make digital copies of the original tapes right? It's is because no matter how carefully they are stored they still deteriorate, especially where they spliced the tape.

The idea that 60s/70s records are so great is a myth - especially rock n' roll. I have 'test' pressings that are noisy as well as WLPs! If you knew how they eq'd rock records back in the 60s/70s you'd know - all those fancy monitors were used to hear the master recordings but when they mixed they used puny 5.25" or other small speakers to hear how the records sounded like on cheap record players and in cars. I was at several sessions and I was shocked the first time I saw it. Some groups and labels including my former employer, Columbia, eschewed that and made some spectacular sounding records in the 60s but for the most part most rock records were pretty thin sounding with little top end or bass - including the Beatles and Stones among others. Listen to the recent re-masterings of many records and you'll hear better bass and treble as well as a fuller midrange because the goal now is to make great sounding recordings for the audio systems in use today and not those in the 60s, especially in England where stereo was adopted much later than in the US.

I'm no 'expert' but I lived through that time and was fortunate enough to experience the record making process, including the pressing process.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Location: nmb, FL, US
HueandEye
i hear ya


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