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 Post subject: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Portland, OR, US
I got an offer from a guy in Canada asking me to ship my Naim Supernait 2 first before payment. He cites his perfect feedback (and it's very good) and doesn't seem to trust protection from Paypal. I tell him that's crazy and he thinks it's the same the other way around.

Is this normal transaction route these days? I don't put up my gear often and maybe the common rules have changed? Is it no longer buyer pays then ship?


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:39 am
Posts: 48
Location: deltona, FL, US
once you have payment , then you can ship. I wouldnt ship before that.


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:31 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Southern, ON, CA
Totally agree, there is no way I would ship without getting the money first.


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:00 pm
Posts: 544
Location: Rio Rancho, NM, US
Nyet! Absolutely not. Regardless of his perfect feedback, why would someone who knows the ways & means of internet commerce even ask you to ship the Naim prior to payment-in-full? It just doesn't pass the smell test.

I'd be concerned first and foremost that this guy's account may have been hacked and you may be dealing with someone other than the actual CAM member....a scam artist who's hoping that you'll trust the feedback, throw caution to the wind and ship your Supernait 2 to him without any payment beforehand.

Ain't no way! If he continues with this demand just move along. The Naim is a very well-known and popular component and you'll find a real buyer soon enough.

Welcome! to the forums btw and let us know how this plays out.

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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:26 pm
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Location: Portland, OR, US
Thanks, guys. I will hold on very tight to my Supernait 2 until a trustworthy buyer comes along. It's pretty crazy how many scammers and tire-kickers have been after this unit.


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:11 am 
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Posts: 231
Location: Vancouver, BC, CA
There's probably good cause for both perspectives.

Some buyers who have strong feedback (say 50+) when buying from a user with much fewer feedback (say less than 10) may insist on being sent an item first before payment, but I think Paypal offers pretty good (but not perfect) protection.

Perhaps the buyer may feel more comfortable if you could show them your ebay, Agon, or other feedback (and prove that you hold those accounts), and offer them more "proof" pictures (eg recent pictures taken with a piece of paper with their name on it) ahead of time, but its unavoidable that some very qualified buyers will want extra assurances when buying from members with few feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:14 pm
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Location: Portland, OR, US
I don’t believe that there is such a thing as “buyers etiquette”, or “sellers etiquette” for that matter. Whatever is agreed to between buyer and seller goes. If there is no meeting of the minds, then no deal.

I would not ship anything without payment though, but I’m under no pressure to make a sale either. I would rather just deal with a fellow hobbyist that has reasonable expectations about how a transaction is crafted.


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:07 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:17 am
Posts: 42
Location: Everett, WA, US
While perhaps the terms "Buyer's" or "Seller's" etiquette might be too defining for some, I do believe that there is a "general" etiquette for Internet transactions, especially for those of us who use USAM or "that other place". Maybe I am being too "snobbish" but we are a relatively small community, and like communities, it is important to be civil / kind to one another. And as such, in my community I would never expect someone to "sell" me something of such got value without having money up front, great feedback or not. If someone you never met before asked to borrow your car, or worse, sell him your car and sign over the title first without cash, because this person has a great credit score, or shows you a bank statement with a lot of money in it, no one (I would hope!) would do this. So just dial the dollar value down a bit in this case and go from there. As a retired detective lieutenant, I had in my investigations unit a group of detectives that investigated "fraud" cases. And since the advent of the Internet, this unit became one of the busiest in my whole department, and we are a fair sized department with over 300 officers. Between identity theft, credit card fraud, and a myriad of other scams, the number of victims grew exponentially. My point is this;the best protection anyone has is common sense, or as someone said, the "smell test". I have sold at least 80-90 items stereo and ever have had anyone ask for something shipped before paying, and I have received some unusual requests. As you asked for input from from us, I can't help but believe that you too think that "something is rotten in Denmark", to paraphrase Mr. Shakespeare.
A lot of good advice here from others....


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:00 pm
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Location: Rio Rancho, NM, US
Speaking of buyers etiquette in general terms, I have a bone to pick with a few USAM members who of course shall remain anonymous. Recently I decided to cull my CD collection of several dozen titles that I either don't listen to much anymore or titles that I purchased at thrift stores in the past year that turned out to be duds.

So I posted classifieds for them here on USAM and sold quite a few. Although it would be nice to get positive feedback for any successful transaction, I honestly wasn't expecting any feedback for these CD transactions. It's one thing to expect feedback for a mutually satisfying sale of a pricey component or speakers etc. but the sale of software is considered by many to be a trifle and in most cases I would agree.

But in every single CD sale the buyer not only did not post any positive feedback for me but they didn't even have the common courtesy to let me know that the CD arrived safely. None of the buyers bothered to send a brief email saying "Got the CD...Thanks." Not one. And all of the CDs' I sold were in NM condition and in many instances I replaced the old jewel case with a brand new one prior to shipping. So it's like those buyers were getting a brand new CD on the cheap. I wanted their buying experience to be a good one for them. But to no avail. The silence was deafening.

Now some of you may think I'm being a wee bit overly sensitive here and I probably am. But it's the complete lack of civility that bugs me the most, not the fact that no positive feedback was left for me for these transactions. Good manners, respectfulness and thoughtfulness have seemingly become out of fashion in our society and are in danger of becoming extinct during our daily discourse.

I blame Trump. Of course it didn't start with him but he sure as Hell ain't helping matters. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:17 am
Posts: 42
Location: Everett, WA, US
Hey, I do not think you are being overly sensitive at all, and I am glad you brought this topic up. It is not only that some "regular" customers do this, but I have purchased from some manufacturers (mostly cable manufacturers) who want your business, you buy from them, and you get no thanks, no feedback, no nothing. Feedback is important. I do my best to make sure that when I sell or buy that I am polite, pack well, send emails to tell when an item is shipped, what to expect, if a signature will be required, etc. As consumers we would expect this from others, and does it not make us feel better when someone takes the time to say "Thanks"? There is more and more a lack of civility in the world and while those people can implode for all I care anymore, this is a small community where we should treat each other with more respect.
I apologize for all of those people who obviously were brought up by parents who never taught them the simple lesson of manners.
I think that USAM and "that other place" should allow for a withdrawal of feedback in the case where one leaves some and the other party does not; so say after 30 days the other party leaves nothing for you, you can pull yours. I know, I know, I am starting to sound like the people I do not care for, but there should be some consequences for a lack of courtesy...
No more ranting...


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Portland, OR, US
IMHO, feedback is not material to the sale and just because I leave it as the seller I have no expectation of getting it from the buyer, or vice versa. After having traded in AudioMart, a print publication from before the internet, and since having traded on the internet the only expectation I have is that I have no expectations for the transaction at all, save that if I pack well and double box that the new owner will get the gear in the condition that I described in the ad. And that isn’t always the

Taking back feedback would be disingenuous. Either what was said is true, or one shouldn’t have said it. And because someone did not reciprocate does not change the veracity of the feedback. Taking back feedback would say more about the one taking it back than about the trading partner who, for whatever reason, neglected to leave feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:00 pm
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Location: Rio Rancho, NM, US
viridian2 wrote:
IMHO, feedback is not material to the sale and just because I leave it as the seller I have no expectation of getting it from the buyer, or vice versa. After having traded in AudioMart, a print publication from before the internet, and since having traded on the internet the only expectation I have is that I have no expectations for the transaction at all, save that if I pack well and double box that the new owner will get the gear in the condition that I described in the ad.


As a seller I never leave feedback for the buyer until he posts feedback for me first. When a buyer does what he says he's going to do i.e. pay quickly, communicates in a timely manner etc. and of course I'm happy about that so the natural tendency is to want to post positive feedback for him immediately. But if I do and then the transaction goes south for whatever reason and the buyer isn't satisfied then as the seller I look foolish because I "jumped the gun". I've had numerous transactions both here on USAM and the 'goN where buyers haven't left feedback for me so I reciprocate in kind. My feedback rating on the 'goN should realistically be about 20-25 points higher than it currently is.

It's not about being petty or vindictive; it's more about properly managing the transaction.

And you mentioned AudioMart! I was a member back in the day and although I only participated in a few transactions, every one of them went smoothly to the buyer's/seller's satisfaction. For those of you who aren't familiar with the now-defunct AudioMart, it was a buy/sell/trade publication by subscription only and each member received 2 or maybe 3 issues per month. Most issues were no more than 12-15 pages long and featured text ads with no pictures. Yes no pics! To get a subscription you had to know someone that did have a subscription and that person was your sponsor and 'reference'. They essentially vouched for and endorsed you: that you were an honorable type that could be trusted. Without a sponsor, no subscription and NO SOUP FOR YOU!

There were no feedback ratings for members and no real records of the transactions. It was all about TRUSTING your fellow hobbyist; every transaction was worked out via phone or correspondence to a PO Box. And the entire time I was member I never heard of anyone being scammed; I had about a dozen close friends who were members at the time.

Today it seems unfathomable that a buy/sell/barter business model like AudioMart could succeed and flourish like it did. But sad to say it was a very different world back then.

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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Portland, OR, US
Hifijones, thank you for that great explanation of AudioMart. Much better than I could have ever explained it.

A couple of interesting sidelights. In the pre-internet days, each ad had a phone number, and all communication took place via, corded, telephone. There was no PayPal and having bought, and sold, a lot on AudioMart, I can say that, although some payments were made by money order, most were by personal check and it was not uncommon for both the check to go in the mail on the next business day and the seller to ship the gear at the same time, before receipt of payment.

The publisher of AudioMart, Walt Bender, was a big collector of vintage gear, particularly the, now unobtainium, Western Electric theatre systems. I think that Walt started the magazine just to have first crack at all the fantastic gear. There were a number of times that I mailed in my ad, and before publication of the issue that it would appear in, Walt would call me up and say, “Hey Marty, tell me about that XXXX gear that you are selling. I want to buy it.” And buy it, he did.

His wife Lenice helped with the enterprise, and they had a son, Early. Early is still involved in the vintage audio business and is now a collector in his own right.

Ahhh, how time flys.


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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:04 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:17 am
Posts: 42
Location: Everett, WA, US
Interesting points of view as always. For me, I am in agreement with hifi jones. I will always prefer to do business with someone who demonstrates some common courtesies, as I would any business. Where I used to work we would often refer to what we called the Nordstrom Rule. I am not sure of the range of Nordstrom stores in the USA, but here in the Pacific Northwest Nordstrom's is famous for their customer service. So, when dealing with a potential buyer, and me as a seller, I try to do what Nordstrom personnel for their customers, which simply means testing the person with civility and doing what one can to make the transaction highly pleasurable. An email saying "thanks" or "I received your shipment" can be that small thing that makes the transaction just a tad nicer.


Last edited by zkidd on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Buyers' etiquette
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:11 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Sacramento, CA, US
This buyer does not make sense.

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