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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:55 am 
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Location: santa cruz, CA, US
In short, I am GOOD with a tape measure and 8x4 sheets of plywood and a screw gun. I can and have built many speaker boxes in the last 30 years.I am no good with calculations or electronics :( I want a specific type of speaker.

I want a pair of great sounding speakers, ****ANY size / dimensions ok, 4 feet x 8 feet NO PROBLEM****, 2 or 3 way, made from parts I can buy online, as cheap as possible but up to about $500 in drivers and x over etc ill allow and extra $80 for some nice plywood.

my primary focus with this build (that i believe is fun and unusual) is that I want these speaker to be able to get 40% louder then your average pair of similarly priced speakers, AND retain good sound quality, with the lower end of the sound spectrum (100-30Hz) being the most important design feature of the build.

My friend and I are opening a BJJ Gym :) - excellent music and sound quality is something we both enjoy, I understand how to integrate a subwoofer, he doesnt. I know he will have the 'Moofer' tooo loud, crossed over wrong, booming when he finally gets his fingers on the house system and is teaching his classes. I don't want to offend our clients ears.

learning how to use a subwoofer correctly takes a while, he is 24, i am 53.

the best way around this troublesome detail i can think of so far is to build a pair of speakers that can satisfy both our love of bass *and nice clean sound... louder then your average speakers that tend to start to overheat / distort give up after a full 8 hours of being enjoyed. :)

I could by some pro audio speakers but Im aiming more 'hi-fi'

I could but some $800 JBL pro audio drivers but can I do something more specific for my design goal for $600 ?

with your help

An unusually loud hifi speaker design, (that happens to have ridiculous bass that is clean and tight if you want it 41hz is good but 35 would be lovely :D )

* id be happy to pay somebody for their time if they know what they are doing ? Im not asking for a free lunch ;)

Im asking for design help and Im happy to pay.


A pair of 350 WRMS 12 " Transmission line, with some nice 'highs' ?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:48 pm 
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If you don't get many replies here I'd recommend that you post the same request for information on the CAM forums. There is probably a larger segment of the DIY crowd over there and I think you'll get more responses to your inquiry.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:31 am 
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Sounds like a good challenge. I can help!
The process of doing this requires that I will need to ask many questions of you.
The first question is, do you prefer to build these yourself (for the fun), or would you consider a pre-built system(for the results)? Next question- how large is the room are you trying to cover? Third question- what amplifiers will you use, or do you have an additional budget for amps/ speaker processing?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:59 am 
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Zolof808 wrote:
Sounds like a good challenge. I can help!
The process of doing this requires that I will need to ask many questions of you.
The first question is, do you prefer to build these yourself (for the fun), or would you consider a pre-built system(for the results)? Next question- how large is the room are you trying to cover? Third question- what amplifiers will you use, or do you have an additional budget for amps/ speaker processing?



1.I will build the boxes / cabinets, any design.

2. 2000 sq feet.

3. all other equipment will be purchase separately, I have $500 - $600 for drivers and crossovers.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:47 pm 
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It will help to know the LxWxH of the room. Square feet matters less. It has to do with required dispersion angles and throw.
If you are planning to mount the speakers on the wall or fly them from the ceiling, this will add cost to the enclosures.
Otherwise, they will probably be best on some speaker stands.

If you don't mind, please contact me via pm. I think we will eventually want to speak by phone.
It will speed up the process.
In addition,
I am happy to help merely for the love of audio, but I welcome a design fee if you are satisfied with the results.
I need to pay the bills! :)
I am, indeed a pro. I own a small sound company and have 33 years of experience.
I began my career in home audio, then transitioned into pro audio, but with the Hi-fi sensibility. Best of both worlds!

Regarding materials, Have you ever ordered from Parts Express? I recommend them as a supplier.
Also, you may want to check the availability of high quality plywood in your area. You need cabinet grade plywood.
A/B or A/A, void free.
Baltic birch is preferred, if we can fit that into your budget.
You said you are good with a screw gun. Do you have an aluminum straight edge for your circular saw?
How about a router?
Biscuit joiner? Pipe clamps?

In general, I am viewing this as more of a pro installation than a home hi-fi application for the purpose of design.
"Commercial Audio" is the term I'm familiar with.
Regarding the appearance of the finished boxes, If you are seeking furniture grade cabinets then this will increase the cost.
The cabinets can be finished with stain and oil finish, to show off the wood, but there will be visible screw holes.
(For strength.) Omitting the screws will be "cleaner" looking, but cabinets will be far less strong.
Another look is painted black - pro look.

My idea is for a sub/satellite system, with separate amp and electronic crossover for the subs.
As passive crossovers are difficult to build, it might actually be preferable to go triamp 3 way.
If you can lock the controls to prevent tampering, this is the superior setup.
The sensitivity of the system must be high, and the drivers must be durable and affordable to meet your budget.
You will require pro audio amplifiers and some sort of digital equalizer/ speaker management device.

This rig is going to rock!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Zolof808 wrote:
I
My idea is for a sub/satellite system,!



I am looking to build a pair of speakers only. no sub.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:14 am 
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You realize that you have some mutually exclusive design goals here, right?
Low end down to 30 hz in a 2000 sq ft room, 40% louder than most speakers, high fidelity performance, and under $600.
Which of these goals are you willing to compromise, and to what extent?
Perhaps, rank them in order of greatest to least priority.

Just for my benefit, why are you against the idea of subs/satellites?

Generally, to get powerful low end at an affordable cost requires big woofers.
If you integrate large woofers with the mid/high section, the boxes get very large and unwieldy, plus the midbass and midrange response suffers due to the width of the front baffle.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:59 am 
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Im a BIG fan of the K.I.S.S. principle.

i think i might just make a variant of these (or maybe 4 ?)

https://www.parts-express.com/project-g ... ue-wonders



:)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:53 am 
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Yes, those would do the job nicely for you. However, the estimated cost of one pair is given as 'over $1000'.
Therefore, violating your budget restriction.
Those speakers would be heavy, too - made as they are of 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood.

I was thinking of a design with each top having 2x 10" and a 1" tweeter in an MTM arrangement, then a pair of single 18" subs.
Four boxes (2 top, 2 sub) made this way would be easier to move and integrate into your space.
On page 2 of this pdf is an example of what I am suggesting: http://carvinimages.com/manuals/trx210n.pdf

Designer Darren Kuzma admits that he traded off some 'punch' at 60 hz for more extended lows.
My design would not have this limitation.

Whatever your final design choice, I also suggest using a processor such as a DBX Driverack 26o.
This is literally a 'magic box'. It has crossover/eq/delay/and subharmonic bass enhancement.
You have the option with the Driverack to omit the passive crossover and go triamp. Far superior sound.
Good used pro sound amps can be had used for low $$ because the industry has moved on to lighter gear.

If you do build the 3 way Kuzma design, at least the crossover work has been done for you.
Passive crossovers are challenging to design.

You will probably want to power these with at least 250 watts/channel, for best results in your space. More if you can.
I was surprised as a teenager to find that the same equipment which blew my face off in my living room sounded like music in the distance in a 50ft x 50ft multipurpose room.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:07 pm 
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^ you're right,

it would be GREAT to really set the sound up to the point that it didn't matter where you were in the 2000 sqft space, the volume and tone was about the same :)

lemme think about it some more, I was thinking about the sweet spot being 1 dedicated area, but now you mention 2 subs and 10" MTMs' you have planted a seed that has no chance of not growing.

what advantage would 10" MTMs have over a 3 way speaker system of similar power handling ?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Advantages:

1) A small midbass/high cabinet will be more portable/easy to elevate to the correct height.
2) A small cabinet has reduced baffle diffraction effect (giving smoother frequency response).
3) More even off-axis coverage, and better pattern control of midbass frequencies. MTM design gives better coverage at distance, due to cylindrical wavefront created by the midbass drivers.
4) Very high sensitivity ( lots of output for a given input). In order to maximize the 'bang for your buck', lower cost midbass drivers can be used. If you chose a single driver with similar output potential, it would break the budget.
5) Having the subs in a separate enclosure allows you to place them in the most advantageous location. What's good for the lows is never as good for the highs. When the low bass speakers are spaced apart (as you want for good imaging) a complex interference pattern is created in the room. There will be a 3 leaf clover shape of coverage. A 'power alley' in the center, then a huge null spot at about 45 degrees off axis. This can be minimized by placing the two subs together in the middle.
(Crossover dependant)

Here is the link to the Wiki page which discusses MTM design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwoofer ... -midwoofer
It's not complete but is a good introduction.
BTW, 10" drivers are a classic. Ever notice what size woofers most bass players use?

I was considering this driver for midbass: Peerless FSL-1015R02-08
One option I like for tweeters is: PRV Audio D230Ti-B with B&C ME20 Horn. Resulting in 90 x 60 degree coverage.
This is a strong contender for subs : Dayton Audio PA460-8 Right now, on sale!
Crossovers, I recommend active. That gives you the option to fine tune without needing to buy lots of parts.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:05 am 
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I like your speaker selection ^ :) nice drivers cheap...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Full disclosure: I have never heard any of these drivers.
I am basing my selections on the physical geometry (18"/10"/1") that prior experience has shown me lead to the results desired, specifications ( sensitivity, power handling, resonance, and Xmax), as well as my prior experience with the companies (in the case of Peerless and B&C).
My design relies on the speaker processor to maximize the final product. The Driverack is capable of electronically correcting for driver alignment (or lack thereof), which has a powerful effect on the coherency of the sound.

Crossover points probably around 100hz/1700 hz. Fine tune carefully by ear. Too low a crossover on the tweeter blows it up.
Too low a crossover on midbass limits midrange output and causes distortion. Too high a xover on midbass makes bass tubby and restricts sub placement options. Raising crossover points, in general, improve max SPL output ( to a point).

The amps you will want should be about 25-50 watts/channel for high, 150-350 w/ch for mid, and 300-700 w/ch for lows.
Good choices would be a Bryston 2b for highs, Bryston 4b for midbass, and a Crest 8001 for lows.
Buy these used.
The Bryston 4b will be the most costly. Watch for a deal.
In this way, you are taking advantage of the surplus of older heavier high-quality amps which are out there.
These amps' quality and power will push the sound over the top!

You can get an equipment rack on your local craigslist to mount the amps and processor, and it will be neat and tidy.
You will most likely want a wheel board since this rack will be heavy.
You can use Neutrik NL8 and/or NL4 connectors so all the wires are connected correctly.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:12 pm 
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more likely use a new 3000 wrms amp from parts express ($250)

https://www.parts-express.com/behringer ... --248-6704

and a

Behringer Super X Pro CX3400

or sum thin' ??

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:11 pm 
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For this to work, you need three amps, one for low, one for midbass, and one for highs.
BTW, you realize that inuke 3000 amp is actually 315 watts/channel at 8 ohms, right?
Don't fall for the hype!
Those class-d amps tend to sound very harsh and have inarticulate highs, IMHO.
The Bryston amps are top of the line. They sound great and are built solid. In fact, they come with a 20 year warranty to the original purchaser. Not a typo. Twenty-year warranty.
At least use one for the tweeters...
Right now on ebay there is a Bryston 2b for $240 with free shipping. Great Deal!

The Behringer crossover is analog instead of digital. It lacks EQ , alignment delay, and the bass synth functions.
Besides, it sounds cold and terrible.
You can grab a used DBX 260 for about $225 on ebay, and its worth far more than 2x the cost of the Behringer.

The crossover is the most important. If you need to economize, do it with amps.
The tweeter amp is most critical. You can economize on the midbass and low amps.
You can always upgrade amps later.


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