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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:03 am 
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Location: Surrey, UK
Morning one and all.

Rob has very sensibly put a line under the old thread, and capped it off with a nice summation, which i will copy below.

I thought I would start a new thread so that those of us who want to can keep in contact. Time will tell if this is of any interest.

M


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:05 am 
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Rob's Last Post:

Long listening session last night - the SQ just keeps getting better and better with the PoE DC settling in! In fact, listening to a few favorite albums I haven't heard in a few months - the SQ was just so much better then before!

I mean transformationally better by a such a significant degree I feel I need to update the relative ranking list.

This PoE DC discovery may be the greatest single improvement I have experienced since I began this journey to perfect digital source many years ago.

And all from just from $25 in easy to connect plug and play parts:
Of course it helps if you have some LT3045's and a decent LPS - but the effect should be heard even off a cheap iPower or other SMPS.

Here is all you need:
$9
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Set-Pairs-Po ... 2749.l2649

$6 each - personally for me the UGREEN is my favorite CAT 7.
And either of these or a combination in different locations of these CAT 7 cables
https://www.ebay.com/itm/UGREEN-Etherne ... 2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBRA-3-Feet-CA ... 2749.l2649

In designating this new chain 'The Perfect One' not that it is - nothing is perfect. But for me this is the 'perfect' audio source I have always been looking for - analog or digital. I can't ask or want for anything more - in fact this far surpasses anything I thought hi end audio was capable of.

The in room realism and presence (especially on the 5ft tall Maggies) is just spooky. Extraordinary bass depth and definition - something I thought only achievable with subs on the Maggie planars. The detail, focus, transparency and clarity beyond anything I have heard analog or digital produce (and I had spent north of $20K to try and achieve that). But it's the point source imaging that has surpassed any thing before - not flattish layered 2D cardboard cutouts - but musical point sources defined by a 3D radiated sound hanging in air. The frontal wave crisp, cleanly defined - without ringing, diffusion, or blur. But it's the recreated and uncovered extremely detailed back and side reflections - those subtle low level ambient clues uncovered and presented in unbelievable clarity and focus - that trick the Ear/Mind into creating the illusion of space. Wide and deep, cavernous deep - extending many feet beyond the rear wall - and the Maggies are already several feet in front of that same wall. Same for the sides. The recreated venue super imposed over the actual real physical space. And within this newly created space - life sized performers - projecting an inner lit quality. As if an audio spot light were shinning on them - not holograms, those fakish illusions - but living, breathing beings. There to perform just for me. Naturally tonally rich without artificial digital etch nor syrupy analog rounding. So no unrealistic sizzly hyper detail I hear from so many digital sources. But purity, an organic rightness - this is a tremendous audio magic trick to pull off - and here finally achieved in spades. I could go on and on describing the perfect relationship between initial impulse wave and the trailing harmonics. Or the speed of the micro dynamics - I like to call 'jump'. Or the the outstanding macro dynamics - that have me adjusting the volume to allow my amps headroom to keep up without compression. Running a Class 'A' solid state amp (up to 30 watts) that gradually biases over to A/B to 140 watts (8 ohms/280 watts 4 ohms)- this amp excels in that sweet Class 'A' sound over 90% of the music - but when the music calls for it - like on big drum strikes - the amp has the headroom to play uncompressed.

All this I have described partly due to the blackest black - lowest floor noise I have yet experienced. Absolutely trouncing anything that analog is capable of. But there is more going on here - a type of power related noise eliminated - allowing all these hyper sensitive femto clocks to do their job better, cleaner, the true Achilles heal of computer audio.

So I now christen this the 'The Perfect One' PoE DC/USB audio: Note other improvements over the 'Ultimate' Chain the addition of the iFi Mercury3.0, and iFi AC iPur.

Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages). The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100

Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:
'The Perfect One' PoE DC Hybrid/Ethernet GB/F-1, Iso Regen, etc.....2000!! Perfect I say - just perfect! :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:
'Ultimate' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB Lan Chain Matrix SPDIF-2, Iso Regen, etc... - 1000! Eureka this is IT! :lol: Silly Good!
'Epitome+' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain 'Epitome +' power cable 3.0 USB Hub - 700 YES i't really that much better! :mrgreen:
'Epitome' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (see post on the prior page and page 100) 500 - YES it's that good!
'Ultra' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (details to long to list) 370
BURL B2B DAC with DANTE Brooklyn II/ modded w/LPS power 285
REDNET 3/Cerious Graphene/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF)/Antelope OCX (RN wClock) 270
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable 250
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)/AS Sliver Statement dig cable 240 - Right about here is where I felt my old $30k Analog rig was finally surpassed (VPI Super Scout Master Signature/Dynavector XV1-S/all Nordost Vahalla cabling including the VPI tonearm/Bent Audio Silver Step-Up transformers/Conrad Johnson totl tubed Phono Pre-amp/Siemens CCa early '60s NOS tubes).
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord 220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB 170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord 155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2 145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen 135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious 135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious 130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2 125
PUC2 Lite - USB power 110
Singxer F-1 Stock feed 110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen 109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene 108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version) 100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version) 95
Hydra Z with LPS 92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps) 85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock) 81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps) 76
Gustard U12 stock 72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC) 65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon 65
M2Tech EVO with LPS 60
Audiophileo 2 USB Power 50
M2Tech Hiface 40

'The Perfect One' USB chain details:

Data chain: Music PC(iCore 7/WIN10 Fidel Pro Purist)PCIe USB card>JB modded VBUS blocker>2G split USB(data leg)>LEX>BJC CAt6a (1 foot)>REX>2G data leg in USB 3.0 Hub with JB VBUS blocker then to the REX by AQ Carbon USB 3.0, power leg in a stock JB into a REX port> IR>iDef>Mercury 3.0>iPur2>Singxer F-1 (BNC)

Power chains:
REX: Minishow LPS 13VDC (LT1083/R-Core version)>PoE DC IBRA CAT 7>1A 12VDC LT3045>6in star quad silver/teflon DC>LEX

LEX: TeraDak DC-30W/ R-core version with four large 4700uf caps replaced by Nichicon HW - split Ghent Audio star quad Oyaide gold DC cable>PoE DC UGREEN CAT 7>2G power leg> adapter (2.1mm DC to USB)>dual series LT3045 (7VDC & 5VDC 500mA)>custom 6inch star quad silver teflon copper braid shielded cable>LEX

IR (IR>iDef>Merc>iPUR2>F-1 chain): TeraDak DC-30W/ R-core version with four large 4700uf caps replaced by Nichicon HW - split Ghent Audio star quad Oyaide gold DC cable>PoE DC UGREEN CAT 7>dual series LT3045 (7VDC & 5VDC 500mA)>custom 6inch star quad silver teflon copper braid shielded cable>IR

SSD (PNY CS211 for OS): Data: fed by special Amphenol SATA twin silver copper shielded cable. Power:TeraDak DC-30W/ R-core version with four large 4700uf caps replaced by Nichicon HW - split Ghent Audio star quad Oyaide gold DC cable>PoE DC UGREEN CAT 7>LT3045 (5VDC 1A)>custom 6inch star quad silver teflon copper braid shielded cable>DC to SATA power adapter>SSD

USB 3.0 Memory Hub: TeraDak DC-30W/ R-core version with four large 4700uf caps replaced by Nichicon HW - split Ghent Audio star quad Oyaide gold DC cable>PoE DC IBRA CAT 7>dual series LT3045 (7VDC & 5VDC 500mA)>custom 6inch silver teflon copper braid shielded cable>USB 3.0 Hub

Music Data storage chain: USB 3.0 hub from the plug side: SLC mSD/USB 3.0adapter, USB stick, Jitterbug VBUS VBUS Blocker to 2G data to IR.
AQ Carbon micro USB 3.0 cable from USB 3.0 HUB to REX.

Enjoy!

PS Edit - just cleaning up some spelling and typos


Last edited by Tubelover2 on 19 May 2018 01:50, edited 4 times in total.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:43 pm 
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i am completely clueless to what this is all about..i do see its all based on a digital chain..yet,you mention lp's in the beginning....is a vinyl lp being fed thru all this stuff? if not...can you explain in VERY SIMPLE TERMS ,what is the source of your music and is it simply a digital file from a computer fed into a dac into a stereo system... i am and have been super intriguied by this thread ever since i saw it..but,completely lost... i am a cartridge on a arm ,on a turntable into a phono stage into a pre amp into amp out to my speakers..thats it! i am fascinated by 2 things 1:your search for the best sound possible 2: can all those parts and pieces actually sound better than a top analog rig(either reel to reel or the best table there is)


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:15 am 
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Hi STM,

Like you I also use a TT. Which is better? Looong, and ultimately a discussion NOT for here. I enjoy both, however which is better for me frequently comes down to factors such as how worn is the LP I am playing!

Without being unfriendly this thread ISN'T a primer on digital audio and its terms - there are lots of resources on the web for that.

This thread is about how to maximise the quality of what you get from an audio file. These can be moved across a network in a number of ways using different protocols.

This thread is two things:

1. Focused; and
2. Practical - What have you tried & heard.

In fairness the focus can shift: DDC; StarTech; LPSU/SMPS; LT3045; PoE.

My advice, if you haven't started down this path, would be to see if you can get to some bake offs and listen to some digitally based systems, then do a lot of reading if it attracts you.

M


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:52 am 
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sharethemusic wrote:
i am completely clueless to what this is all about..i do see its all based on a digital chain..yet,you mention lp's in the beginning....is a vinyl lp being fed thru all this stuff?

In this case,Lp's would mean "Linear Power Supply".

The threads are all about stereo digital chain but the last (but not least) discovery of Rob (Power over Eternet,POE) could,perhaps,do good things for some analog devices too.
The one that use low voltage,low current,external psu like some types of preamps and phono preamps.
It remains to experiment...

Ed


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:48 am 
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Location: nmb, FL, US
PERFECT thank u


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Location: bc, , HK
rob, my startech + iso regen chain keep giving me good music.

i told my friend in china to try poe idea because he got the poe part at 1 day time. (if got it at ebay, we need to wait for 10 days - 2 weeks time)

his impression is: the sq change is obviously. cheap price cat 7 cable is better than brand:aq cat 5 cable.
more spacious, high less harsh, bass is define. soundstage is wider. and deeper. more real.
his ranking is: cheap cat7 cable > 15cm diy belden cable > klotz rc5 cable.
i think his cheap cable is about usd 1-2 buck.

his last sentence is: thank rob for this discovery.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:38 pm 
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Thanks Mr Underhill for keeping this topic alive, I am very interested to keep abreast on all the latest discoveries and I hope there will be many more to come. :)


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:42 am 
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Hi Colour97,

I agree, Rob has done some sterling R&D. I especially like his concentration on VFM.


Hi j3294,

Ultimately it is up to everyone who was following Rob's thread to keep trying things and posting back.

In my case:
PoE - I had slavishly inserted PoEs before my LT3045s, but left the DC cables in place following the boxes. As a result of swapping out my Raspberry Pi 3 in favour of a small NUC type PC I had two PoEs going spare. These were using lesser liked Amazon CAT7s, as I had used up my Ibras on the front end. Slotting them in bought further gains, although my front end now looks like spaghetti junction. I left those baking in for a week and ordered some more Ibras. Yesterday I swapped out the Amazons and got immediate gains in bass and high end quality. The Amazon cables are now just going in with my standard patch leads.

NUC - Audiostore Prestige 2

Towards the end of the 'proper' thread I mentioned that I had bought a 2nd hand Vortexbox Audiostore Prestige 2

http://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172&start=3600#p9502

I summarised this as sounding better than the RPi3 but preventing me from mounting all four of my USB sticks on the StarTech, and mentioned these options:

> Live with one USB stick on the HUB via StarTech;
> Set up the RP3 as a NAS and raid the USB sticks .....I suspect this will lose some of the advantages of the StarTech;
> Unlock the Prestige and load Ubuntu and do what I want;
> Try and gain SSH access.

Well, I have run through a couple of options, which I will report back when I get back from family duties later.

M


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 Post subject: NUC
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:32 am 
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Rob reported on his NUC and the disappointment is was from an audio POV.

I was toying with buying a sonicTransporter and saw a the Audiostore Prestige 2 plus 19v SBooster LPSU.

1. It sounded better acting as an LMS host than the RPi3 + LT 3045s / R-Core I had been using. In fact with Qobuz it was superb;
2. It reported itself as running 2.5 of its OS, but that 2.6 was available.

Using its interface I updated it, but it still reported 2.5; so I did a quick search and found a URL to point at - DON'T DO THIS. In the event it updated and sounded a bit better.

The following morning a powered it down then rebooted it .....and it was dead. Turns out the 2.6 is for sonicTransporters, not Audiostores!

Vortexbox are going to help me get back on track but in the meantime I thought I would have some fun, and so ......

1. I loaded Ubuntu 18.04
Just need to create a boot USB. This was a minimal install. I then:

1. Loaded LMS;
2. Turned off every service I could; and then
3. Tuned the OS using: https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/system_configuration.

This tuning script / page is really aimed at people using Linux for audio applications rather than audiophile ones, but it is interesting as a learning tool.

Two days of tuning later and I would say it was probably no better than using the Raspberry Pi. Some things were better, but very much swings and roundabouts.

so,

2. Vortexbox 2.4

Download the image, create a boot USB and follow instructions:

https://wiki.vortexbox.org/available_images

Set up LMS and .....MUCH better. Pretty old (2015).

The system is built on Fedora and uses dnf for updates. Using this you can get the system up to 2.5, which is what I am currently running:

https://www.vortexbox.org/forum/main-forum/1415-fedora-security-updates-only-on-newer-releases?p=1433#post1433

Even better
. In fact running local files from the StarTech was getting me on par with the best of the Audiostore with Qobuz.

Also, with either of these solution I could SSH into the box and mount all four USB sticks.


Listening to my system through this system is excellent, and difficult to describe. I THOUGHT I had good separation, resolution and dynamics. The change this has bought, which is undoubtedly built on the rest of the chain, is subtle but pervasive. The soundfield is laid out in front of me and singers and instruments are simply there; I don't mean in the room, although the verisimilitude can be excellent if the recording is, but that the tracks laid down are just open and present to be inspected. Crescendos build and get physically louder. Unless you have heard it these are just words, and I had thought things were excellent, well now they are simply better.

Edge:
My perennial bugbear. Solved? No, not completely .....for some files. The proper Audiostore Prestige OS was better at this, and so will be reloaded once version 2.6 is available.

Some problem files (Pop/Rock) are simply that in my system. I won't forget them, but I am enjoying everything else a lot. Time to just get on listening.

M


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Hey Rob,

Do you consider the Startech Ethernet USB extender not essential anymore in your chain? From what I've read, when your Startech went on the fritz, seems like you didn't miss it much. Seems to me that a nice USB hub with separate DC input + POE injectors + LPS + LT3045 is all that's needed? If so, this would simplify the chain a lot!

Cheers,
Mike


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:08 pm 
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mtruong34 wrote:
Hey Rob,

Do you consider the Startech Ethernet USB extender not essential anymore in your chain? From what I've read, when your Startech went on the fritz, seems like you didn't miss it much. Seems to me that a nice USB hub with separate DC input + POE injectors + LPS + LT3045 is all that's needed? If so, this would simplify the chain a lot!

Cheers,
Mike


Well, I just saw he's selling it in new in the box condition.


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 Post subject: StarTech vs NAS vs SSD
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Hi Totoxio,

In my setup I found that there is a very small difference between the files on my internal SSD and the StarTech, both better than the same files on my NAS.

Going to do more listening.


For anyone that is interested you can pick up unterminated 1 meter lengths of Supra CAT 8 on ebay.com, with free international postage if you buy a minimum of 4 pieces.

Had a think about it, but I am pretty happy with my SQ and will concentrate on my server for the moment.

M


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Hi M! Thanks for starting this continuation thread.

Well my attempt to provide my knowledge of the great PoE DC discovery to a broader CA audience ended in me being banned yesterday! And that cheeseball CC did it with out warning and for some baloney reason...just as the PoE DC thread was really getting good.

I dared to enter the lion's den with full knowledge that it was going to be a battle. But I tried to be as nice as possible...even in the face of some of the most awful behavior.

Larry (imitche) has just lost it - some how deluding himself into thinking he ran that thread and dumping all over our friend wushuliu - who was only asking asking some great questions and providing very useful information! And that was after he posted patently bad information on the PoE DC Ethernet current limits - which I called him out here on and he had to veilingly try to cover his tracks there.

It's too bad as there are some really great folks there - and some really awful ones.

In my very brief day or two there the thread was transformed from a unfocused - totally incoherent thought process - into a really productive thread. With John Swenson joining in with some great information and thoughts! The thread was gaining some great momentum, and not in the non-PoE direction Larry was pushing it. Hijacking the thread to turn it into 'his' idea - Gotham star quad cable - in direct competition to Uptone's own product - on their Sponsors forum! Of course CC, so biased, and many other posters there, looking the other way. CC could not wait to end me there - especially after I called him and MT out on that NADAC parade he was hosting. My photos of the NADAC coverless - and that great SMPS power supply - nice! What you'd expect on a $10,000 DAC Full cheerleader pom-poms waving!
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And where did that much ballyhooed ZMAN AoIP card end up? Show me the plethora of high end DAC's using it. In fact go to Blizzards ( I think he was a partner with them) website - gone are the USB players, and pre-amps - gone in fact is almost every thing he was touting here.

What a sad place CA is - so territorial and egotistical!

And why USAM is such a great forum.

Anyway the breakthroughs in PoE Dc are only beginning - my experiments with Active PoE DC and a very special secret project in a completely different direction as showing me.

Once all is worked out I'll launch a new thread here on just PoE DC - probably the greatest audio discovery in years! Certainly SQ gain per dollar wise.

I'm not back blogging here - I'm going to take an extended holiday and just focus on this amazing PoE DC audio gold mine.
Just a quick explanation so I'm not accused of 'taking my toys and going home...' from CA like some did there.

Cheers my friend!


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Did CA give a reason or warning of the ban? Or they just whammied you out of the blue?


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