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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:23 am 
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Mr Underhill wrote:
CatfishGlenn wrote:
...... I’m using the AQ Cinnamon as the positive cable that connects to the POE before the ISO Regen and the Vandersail CAT 8 as the rest of the cables.

.....


Hi Glenn,

What is the difference between using a Vandersail CAT 8for the +ve and the AQ Cinnamon in your setup?

Thx
Once I get my lastly received pair of Vande 8's burned in, I'll swap them in for the AQ Cin on v+ and AQ Forest on v-. In the main system on the F-1. Will report the findings as well - but so far the Vande8's in the preceding DUAL CAT pair was a nice step up over the UGREEN7 flats.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:39 pm 
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I think I found one of reasons PoE DC works so well.

Looking at various electrical engineering websites I came across this:
https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Where they show what they call Maximum Frequency for 100% Skin Depth Chart by wire gauge.
They explain this measure:
Quote:
This data is useful for high frequency AC engineering. When high frequency AC is conducted by a wire there is a tendency for the current to flow along the outside of the wire. This increases the effective resistance. The frequency listed in the table shows the frequency at which the calculated skin depth is equal to the radius of the wire, and is an indication that above this frequency you should start considering the skin effect when calculating the wire's resistance.

Now the interesting part - the wires used in the Vandesail CAT 8 and the UGREEN CAT 7 are 32awg
in the chart the 'Maximum Frequency for 100% Skin Depth' is an amazingly high 430 kHz! For a typical 18awg it's 17 kHz and for a 12awg it's a very low 4150 Hz.
So for this 32awg at even very high frequencies the skin effect is virtually zero.

Interesting!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:28 am 
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Not CAT 8 but these guys are selling 36AWG ones for ¥ 8.9 ($1.28) a piece

http://www.comnen.com/product-category/ultra-thin-patch-cable/
https://toplan.1688.com/offer/560871494541.html
http://item.jd.com/18117535231.html

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:41 am 
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seeteeyou wrote:
Thanks S2Y! Will definitely give them a try.

At 36 awg the Maximum Frequency for 100% Skin Depth Chart would be 1100 kHz!

The combined gauge using the DUAL CAT - that is all 8 CAT wires per DC leg - would be approx 26awg. Fine up to 2.2A

I ordered a pair of these shielded STP 36awg on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/232604931124
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I also ordered some of these unshielded STP's on Ebay. Decent 550MHz bandwidth. Just ordered two - US seller - should be here in a few days.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/392156001257
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$6.03 each free shipping - GOT to LOVE PoE DC! Where else in audio can you cable roll and get so much SQ lift for so little. :mrgreen:
Cheers


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:56 pm 
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My new ultra small MonoPrice CAT6a cables -
I received a pair of the ultra small 5 ft UTP Monoprice CAT6a listed on the package as Micro SlimRun 550Mhz Pure bare copper 36awg
Attachment:
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s-l1600.jpg [ 44.85 KiB | Viewed 605 times ]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-SlimRun- ... 2749.l2649

And a pair of 5ft Monoprice CAT6a S/STP (double shielded) 10G 36awg Pure Bare Copper Wire
Attachment:
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/SlimRun-Cat6A- ... 2749.l2649
So far on initial listening in my office system they sound very good - esp the SlimRun one. Will try in the main room tonight.

Will put them up against the Vandesail CAT 8s and AQ Cin and Forest CAT 7's.

Then will burn them in for a week to try again.

They are very inexpensive - $6.03 for the slim shipped, $6.90 for the 36awg.

Fun! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:46 am 
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Update on last night's CAT cable rolling in the main system.

Whoa! Another SQ significant step forward! :D

So here is what I tried and what moved the puck up ice.

Just rolling the CAT cables (swapping both v+ and v- with the same type cable) in the first set of DUAL CAT's feeding my F-1 by way of dual series LT3045's. In this doubled DUAL CAT SQUARED set-up I have two sets of DUAL CAT pairs linked in series (four in total).
The final DUAL CAT pair still using the AQ Cin on the v+ and AQ Forest on v-. So the rolling last night only occurred on the pair feeding these.

And folks we have a new winner in the low cost PoE DC CAT cables.

The cables I rolled where the following:
Vandesail 2M CAT8 -32awg
Monoprice 5 ft UTP CAT6a Micro SlimRun 550Mhz - 36awg Pure Bare Copper Wire
Monoprice 5ft CAT6a S/STP (double shielded) 10G 36awg Pure Bare Copper Wire

Up until last night the Vandesail CAT 8 was the low cost class leader - beating out the UGREEN flat CAT 7

But the shocking :shock: break through cable? The tiny Monoprice 5 ft UTP CAT6a Micro SlimRun!.
Shocking because it was the cable with no exterior shielding, being a UTP cable - and is really small diameter (the whole cable is just 2cm).

But no question with just this one pair swapped in the DC chain - the SQ took another significant step forward. The difference from the Vande8?
Well in every category the SQ improved.
Most notable increased air and transparency, and the bass! Oh Lordie Lordie, Lord what bass depth and definition! :lol:
Not that the other Monoprice STP or the Vande8 were lacking in bass, in fact the VANDE8 has excellent bass - it was just in comparison - there was no match. It was Wow! the moment I heard the 1st drum roll.

Detail increased further as well as sound stage width and depth. This cable is really something to hear.
And this was fresh out of the box, I'm sure after a weeks burnin it will just get better.
So here was my take on all three cables - and I did like them all.

Monoprice 5 ft UTP CAT6a Micro SlimRun - King of the hill! - gorgeous SQ. Air, spacious, vocal tonal perfection, fathomous bass depth and stellar definition. Massive sound stage with great clarity and focus, another layer of detail revealed.
Attachment:
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Vandesail CAT 8 Big and bold sound. Huge dynamics - just a bit more then the SlimRun. Wonderful tonal signature - just a great PoE DC cable
Attachment:
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Monoprice 5ft CAT6a S/STP Warm, soothing, maybe the best cable for bright hard systems. Less detail, dynamics and bass then the other's above. But a nice inviting musical portrayal.
Attachment:
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Glad to have all three of these cables - one of the beauties of PoE DC DUAL CAT - the ability to easily and quickly swap CAT cables. Want to change the sound for a bit, easy just grab a different set of these plug and play - sit back and enjoy.

While the CA folks are swapping in and out $5,000 OXCO clocks and $1,200 clock cables - I'm having great success and fun swapping $6 CAT cables!

Got to love this hobby.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:50 am 
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Here is the Ebay ad title and link for the 'King of the Hill' low cost PoE DC cable
Micro SlimRun Cat6 Ethernet Patch Cable 5ft Blue | Stranded 550MHz UTP 36AWG
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-SlimRun- ... 2749.l2649
Attachment:
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s-l1600.jpg [ 44.85 KiB | Viewed 582 times ]


Also available in Red - which I ordered this morning to match the blue. So this way when swapping cables I'll have Red on v+ and Blue on v-. They are the same cable - and this will make it easier to not mix up polarities.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-SlimRun- ... 2749.l2649
Attachment:
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789.jpg [ 43.45 KiB | Viewed 582 times ]


My next experiment with these will be adding a double layer of copper shielding.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:18 am 
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M,

I hope you don't mind me sharing part of your excellent post on the 'A novel way...'thread on CA regarding PoE DC DUAL CAT and the LT3045's:

LT3045's
Quote:
LT3045
These cards remove noise, and having tried one I fitted them everywhere I could. You need to make them up in a hobby box with a bit of soldering.
An R-Core + LT3045 became my PSU of choice, and enabled me to sell my LPS-1s without a worry.
This had a moderate positive effect.


PoE DC DUAL CAT
Quote:
DC Cabling & PoE
This is an interesting one. The cables used to connect the DC power have a ridiculous influence. The best I have found is a DUAL CAT arrangement using Power over Ethernet (PoE). The CAT cables do matter, and the best to date have been Audioquest. I am using Pearls, but Cinnamon is better. There are some cheap and very effect cables such as the 3M Vandersils CAT8 or Ibra CAT7. Cheap experiment and has to be heard to believe it.

The DUAL CAT involves doing some DIY on a PoE distribution box to use all eight CAT wires, and then use one cable for +ve and one for -ve.
This had a moderate positive effect


Wait until you try the DUAL CAT SQUARED with some of these Monoprice Micro SlimRun cables! :mrgreen:

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Just for kicks they're actually selling 56AWG wires for 8 bucks

http://www.ultrafinecopperwire.com/supplier-200174-0-012mm-copper-wire
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/0-012mm-superfine-UEW-155-180_60429487785.html
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Colorful-Soldering-Copper-Wire-0-012mm_60701528597.html

I don't even know what kinda current it's good for since each wire is thinner than human hair, though they do offer options from 20AWG to 56AWG.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:49 am 
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seeteeyou wrote:
Just for kicks they're actually selling 56AWG wires for 8 bucks

http://www.ultrafinecopperwire.com/supplier-200174-0-012mm-copper-wire
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/0-012mm-superfine-UEW-155-180_60429487785.html
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Colorful-Soldering-Copper-Wire-0-012mm_60701528597.html

I don't even know what kinda current it's good for since each wire is thinner than human hair, though they do offer options from 20AWG to 56AWG.

Try doing a CAT 6a or 7, 8 varying twist by hand - nearly impossible.

I'll stick with the $6 precision machine made CAT's.

Thanks though


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:42 pm 
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My 3 additional pairs Monoprice 36awg 5ft SlimRun Cat6 550Mhz arrived.

Plugging them into the first PoE DUAL CAT pair in my office system's DUAL CAT SQUARED (one DCS on DC to the LKS-100 and one DCS on the DC feeding the ESS9038 DAC)

Replacing UGREEN and IBRA's before - the SQ took a marvelous jump!

This is just my office system - but I could immediately hear an increase of bass depth, greater tonal richness (who says ESS Sabre DAC's sound thin!), improved dynamics.

Just stuns me - that these CAT cables can sound so different and can improve the sound to such a great degree. And boy do these ever sound great.

One pair will be going into the main system tonight :lol:

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:27 am 
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Location: Göttingen, , DE
hi,
since the poe texas boxes have very high delivery fee(around 90€ to europe) im looking for alternatives.
i found 2 4 port poe, but i dont know if it suits our needs, so what do you think of them?

https://www.ebay.de/itm/4-Port-Passive-Gigabit-POE-Injector-Panel-12-48V-POE4PG-for-Ubiquiti-Mikrotik/202065685457?epid=25003183452&hash=item2f0c0dabd1:g:gdoAAOSw~l1Z6fkc:rk:13:pf:0

https://www.ebay.de/itm/4-Port-Passive-POE-Injector-Panel-12-48V-POE4P-for-Ubiquiti-Mikrotik/163131080484?epid=10021133351&hash=item25fb5ebf24:g:aYwAAOSw6Tdb1tBD:rk:2:pf:0


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:56 am 
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hifly wrote:
90 Euro for delivery? I sent a pair to the UK for around $22.

Those two won't work - they are not truly passive - note all the electrical components on the boards.
Attachment:
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Attachment:
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7777.jpg [ 36.52 KiB | Viewed 188 times ]


The PoE Texas 8 ports have no electrical components other then the power on LED - no capacitors, DC to DC switches, etc...

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:12 pm 
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hifly wrote:
hi,
since the poe texas boxes have very high delivery fee(around 90€ to europe) im looking for alternatives.
No need for any alternatives, take a look at the UPC here

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PoE-Texas-8-Port-Passive-POE-Injector-No-Power-Supply-WS-POE-8-ENC/181553502525
Quote:
609788692317
ZQPOEI008 with the same UPC 609788692317 for less than $10 each and (slow) international shipping to Germany is free

http://www.szzhangqing.com/productlist.asp?ID=98VX45VSZ2
https://www.facebook.com/zhangqing005/posts/279453125762312
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PoE-Injector-8-Way-Passive-24Volt-48Volt-Ethernet-PoE-Patch-Panel/32749915321.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PoE-World-8-Port-Security-Power-over-Ethernet-Passive-injector-Mid-span-PoE-Injector-Network-for/32897304783.html

For 90€ / $102 you could get a dozen of them on November 11th ($8.09 a piece) and then make something like DUAL CAT TESSERACTED PoE DC 3.1.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Those may be different - certainly the one on Facebook. Note the capacitors on each end. That means there are harder to cut board traces and may be impossible to isolate the DC traces.

Just like the problem I ran into with these:
Attachment:
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As much as I tried - I could never get the ground isolated:
Attachment:
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IMG_2730.JPG [ 448.98 KiB | Viewed 152 times ]

Attachment:
IMG_2732.JPG
IMG_2732.JPG [ 442.31 KiB | Viewed 152 times ]


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