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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:25 am 
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Tubelover2 wrote:
joimon wrote:
It's an uptade over my initial recomendation of use ethernet CAT 7 cable, as AC mains cable.
Now I changed the internal wiring to match same I use as DC cable. That means the cable must force each internal (braided and shielded) pair, to carry both neutral and live (phase) in this case. This four conductor are splited at extremes, as seen in the picture, then conveniently attached to plugs terminals.
I use 8 thick 24 AWG conductors and european higher 230V. So not seing any harm. My equipment is low power amp. / fullrange speaker.
Results were a revelation, just to mention that plugging the wrong AC phase never were so evident.

That is cool! The Supra is a good CAT cable for this as it's flame resistant and larger gauge.
But using a combination of wires within one CAT cable could be dangerous. If the wires carrying the v+ and v- were to overheat and melt the insulation - they could come into contact causing a short. Not good.
I'd go one CAT cable per leg - to double your current capacity - and prevent and possible internal cable shorting.


Eight 27awg give you a 18awg equivalent, not much by most AC cord standards. I use a very special cyro'd silver/copper/teflon 10awg wire I use to build my custom AC cords. These are the finest sounding power cords I have yet to hear, beating the Synergistic Research, Nordost Valhalla, Cerious Tech Graphene Xtreme, etc...

Maybe for a DAC or small LPS a PoE AC cable would work - but most amps are going to draw to large a current. Check the rating on your amps fuse.
18awg is good for 16amps, 10awg 55amps.

I'd keep that PoE AC off of any rug or carpet and check it for heating.

Good luck!


Ahh, the pennies dropped! I was thinking having the hot and neutral in the one ethernet cable could be dangerous but two cables, one each for hot and neutral would be fine I imagine.
Rob, I didn't realize you have made an Dual Cat mains AC cable - is this the case?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:47 am 
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marcus1 wrote:

Ahh, the pennies dropped! I was thinking having the hot and neutral in the one ethernet cable could be dangerous but two cables, one each for hot and neutral would be fine I imagine.
Rob, I didn't realize you have made an Dual Cat mains AC cable - is this the case?
Hi Marcus, After much experimentation and comparison to some of the finest power chords, and the help in procuring very special AC wire. I finally came on an ideal topology - inter weaved 10awg silver/copper/teflon cyro'd wire, both passive and active EMI/RFI noise suppression, excellent Cyro'd WattGates. The key was in getting the best wire for this use - all silver was to bright - all copper not enough detail. Combination of silver.copper perfect. The other optimization was the right active noise suppression. The result - the finest sounding AC cable I've heard, bettering the Cerious Technology Graphene Xtreme. Detail, dynamics, ultra black floor noise - but smooth and liquid.

These cables do matter!

As for a PoE AC - well for the reasons I've previously stated - that is current capability - maybe not the optimal solution. Especially with AC on power amps - you do not want any current limitations for best dynamics.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:46 am 
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Hi, I have just received my PoE injectors. Is it the correct way to connect the cables? But I have seen someone earlier in the post to connect two Ethernet cables between the two PoE injectors, do I also need to connect one more Ethernet cable between them? Also do you recommend using this Ethernet cable? Is the dc cable also important?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:59 am 
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wongtonypr wrote:
Hi, I have just received my PoE injectors. Is it the correct way to connect the cables? But I have seen someone earlier in the post to connect two Ethernet cables between the two PoE injectors, do I also need to connect one more Ethernet cable between them? Also do you recommend using this Ethernet cable? Is the dc cable also important?
Hello - to use those 8 ports in a DUAL CAT configuration you need to open the case - cut the PoE board traces and solder in a direct wire connection from a unified point (soldering together all 8 rj45 pins on each of two ports), to the appropriate DC output contact. This provides all 8 wires on each CAT cable for the v- and the v+, so requires two cables - hence the name 'DUAL CAT'.

It is critical that the modded boards be tested thoroughly - to be sure there are no current paths left on the board traces. This can create a short to ground - not good! I test each board 6 times - once on just the bare board with traces cut, then again after the Mundorf 18awg solid core silver/gold/teflon point to point wire is soldered in place, then again with the boards reassembled in their cases and CAT cables connected, finally I use a cheap LT1083 LPS to power them up - one good thing about this LDO Reg is has a very effective short sensor and will shut off before damaging the LPS. I also test that each of the eight wires on the v- and v+ CAT cables are connected.

Using them in stock form will work - but only provide two wires per DC leg. So only CAT cable needed. You will be using the inferior board traces as compared to the totl Mundord solid core silver/gold/teflon wired point to point connection. This makes a difference. And will not have the sonic advantage of keeping the v- and v+ completely separate from each other (capacitance coupling reduced).

You have the correct CAT cable - but being 36awg - using only 2 wires per leg it will not be able to handle much current. 2 X 36awg= 32awg. 32awg current limit = 0.5 amps
You could use a larger gauge CAT cable like the AQ Pearl/Forest/Cinnamon which are 27awg I believe. That would give you 2 X 27awg = 24awg.

But in my experiments with the AQ Cin/Forest the SQ of the DUAL CAT PoE DC.3.1 is much better then the PoE DC.2, or PoE DC.1 (the equivalent to what you have with the stock 8 ports).

And yes the final leg DC cable does matter. This is the cable from the PoE endpoint to the powered device.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:39 am 
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Tubelover2 wrote:
wongtonypr wrote:
Hi, I have just received my PoE injectors. Is it the correct way to connect the cables? But I have seen someone earlier in the post to connect two Ethernet cables between the two PoE injectors, do I also need to connect one more Ethernet cable between them? Also do you recommend using this Ethernet cable? Is the dc cable also important?
Hello - to use those 8 ports in a DUAL CAT configuration you need to open the case - cut the PoE board traces and solder in a direct wire connection from a unified point (soldering together all 8 rj45 pins on each of two ports), to the appropriate DC output contact. This provides all 8 wires on each CAT cable for the v- and the v+, so requires two cables - hence the name 'DUAL CAT'.

It is critical that the modded boards be tested thoroughly - to be sure there are no current paths left on the board traces. This can create a short to ground - not good! I test each board 6 times - once on just the bare board with traces cut, then again after the Mundorf 18awg solid core silver/gold/teflon point to point wire is soldered in place, then again with the boards reassembled in their cases and CAT cables connected, finally I use a cheap LT1083 LPS to power them up - one good thing about this LDO Reg is has a very effective short sensor and will shut off before damaging the LPS. I also test that each of the eight wires on the v- and v+ CAT cables are connected.

Using them in stock form will work - but only provide two wires per DC leg. So only CAT cable needed. You will be using the inferior board traces as compared to the totl Mundord solid core silver/gold/teflon wired point to point connection. This makes a difference. And will not have the sonic advantage of keeping the v- and v+ completely separate from each other (capacitance coupling reduced).

You have the correct CAT cable - but being 36awg - using only 2 wires per leg it will not be able to handle much current. 2 X 36awg= 32awg. 32awg current limit = 0.5 amps
You could use a larger gauge CAT cable like the AQ Pearl/Forest/Cinnamon which are 27awg I believe. That would give you 2 X 27awg = 24awg.

But in my experiments with the AQ Cin/Forest the SQ of the DUAL CAT PoE DC.3.1 is much better then the PoE DC.2, or PoE DC.1 (the equivalent to what you have with the stock 8 ports).

And yes the final leg DC cable does matter. This is the cable from the PoE endpoint to the powered device.

Good luck!


Are there anyway to achieve the ‘dual cat’ style of connection without any soldering? Can I still make I ‘cat squared’ even without separating the v- and v+? Also I just found even without any soldering it sounds different when I add another Ethernet cable between the two PoE injectors.

Also are there any differences between using different PoE injectors models?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:50 am 
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wongtonypr wrote:
Are there anyway to achieve the ‘dual cat’ style of connection without any soldering? Can I still make I ‘cat squared’ even without separating the v- and v+? Also I just found even without any soldering it sounds different when I add another Ethernet cable between the two PoE injectors.

Also are there any differences between using different PoE injectors models?
All very good questions. By adding another CAT cable you are an additional 2 wires per leg. So it makes sense that it would sound different. But it's not DUAL CAT as I have described it. You are not separating the v- from the v+ cables, and you are using the board traces versus the Mundorf wire. Those two things mean a lot for the SQ. But you will still get some benefit from your PoE DC.

I have tried several PoE injectors - most are not suitable for DUAL CAT. They have board traces that can not be isolated and severed, or they have added electrical components that add DC noise being in the circuit. There is no way I know of to build a DUAL CAT without soldering. DUAL CAT SQUARED is the same.

PM me and I can provide more details.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:03 am 
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Hi, I am in contact with a company that builds PoE injectors in China and they are very helpful in helping me to make the specific injector used in the Dual cat setup. May I ask is this the correct blueprint for the modified injector used in The dual cat setup?

Also is the length of the Ethernet cable really matters? If The company can build an all in one solution for the Squared Dual cat setup, it would be great if the Ethernet cable could be as short as possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:01 pm 
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wongtonypr wrote:
May I ask is this the correct blueprint for the modified injector used in The dual cat setup?
That looks like POE DC v1 to me, not much point in building that as we already simple, cheap adapters for people to get a taste of what this can do. For v3, it should be all pins 1-8 connected to v+ and an adjacent jack with all pins 1-8 connected to v-. If possible, let's get really high quality rj-45 jacks with silver plating and use mundorf silver gold wire and solder. Now the really hard part, how can this company assure us that they really did use that level of parts/metals? It still may be worth doing without premium parts, but let's shoot for the stars.
wongtonypr wrote:
Also is the length of the Ethernet cable really matters? If The company can build an all in one solution for the Squared Dual cat setup, it would be great if the Ethernet cable could be as short as possible.
Go back read a lot of the recent posts to get more background. I think no, we don't want all in one since part of the appeal is the easy way to change / tailor the sound to our systems via swapping cat cables, and take advantage of new cables. It also let's people decided for themselves how much to spend on these cat cables, some might go nuts and spends $1000s total. :mrgreen: OTOH, removing additional non-soldered connections has an appeal, but they'd need to use good sounding cat cables. If they could also make the dual silver plated jacks connected to solder tails and to AC-12 plugs, that would also be of interest.

Don't forget the middle piece which has 2 pairs of additional rj-45s connected via starquad silver gold to get the vaunted POE DSC3.1

Have them go slow, make many prototypes, and send them to Rob for verification. He'll be brutally honest about their sound and might not charge them too much! His approval would buy some credibility. :idea:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:21 am 
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Audio Ponderings:

As I was listening to my main system last night - just enveloped and captured by the sound.
Such elegance, vividness, delicacy , yet powerful and dynamic - something else captured my attention. It was this organic aliveness, a captivating emotional connection.

Truly what sota audio is all about for me - and what I have vigorously (some would say obsessively) pursued for going on four decades.

I had the feeling now that my audio system was not just an inanimate object, not just an assembly of wires, capacitors, clocks, IC's, etc...it has a personality, a nature as animate objects possess.

A kind of hybrid of electronics infused with the living human meaning embedded in these various recordings. But as I have experience so well over the last 10 years - each change and improvement in my system added a presentation personality to these recordings. Listening nightly for 3 or 4 hours each day - many times to the same recording in a cycling playlist - at a certain level of audio reproduction you can sense what the assemblage of inanimate electronics is adding to the audio reproduction. And at the highest levels of reproduction - every recording, no matter made 40 yrs ago or last year, is presented in a most realistic pleasing fashion.

Unlike many art forms say like oil paintings and sculpture - the medium is a locked in part of the message. But no so with audio. The artistic expression needs to be brought into our sensory reality. So this 'canvas' can be so varying from one audio system to another. At the highest levels of reproduction, even the smallest of changes can be heard, and effect the listener's emotion connection to the recording artist. Even live music is not in this same frame - as once the music is preformed it's in the past. Even if the artist where to replay the song, it will be slightly different. Not so with recorded music - forever capturing that singular performance. So the variable is the playback lens that allows us to re-experience it again and again.

I wrote back with the this USB/Hybrid digital chain - that the change in reproduction was so profound as to change the way I listened and appreciated recorded music. With the greater detail retrieval and the presentation being of a more realistic unified 'whole cloth' nature. I gained more of an appreciation of the production and recording genius of great artists - in addition to their musical talents.

With PoE DC DUAL CAT SQUARED - this times ten.

Just making audio the greatest of joys and always exciting to hear!

Cheers! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:29 pm 
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About to begin my next major PoE DC project. To insert PoE DC DUAL CATs between the ATX Molex connectors from my fanless SeaSonic PC power supply and the i-Core7 MB.

Will start with some adapter cables to insert in between wired to an 8 port injector.

Beginning with the 4 port ATX Molex CPU power connector. What's really nice on my Seasonic PSU it had Molex plugs for the various power outputs - not hardwired output wires.
So this will be much easier, and completely reversible.

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After that test on the four pin ATX will move to the larger and more complex 24 pin ATX connector.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:57 pm 
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The Chinese PoE injector construction company has replied me that since their PoE injectors already the have the function to separate +v and -v in different ports while supplying power, all I need to do to ‘squeezes’ the eight separate wires of the Ethernet cables into one and plug two of them into the correct ports if I want to make the whole Ethernet cable to supply +v and -v power. Can anyone explain what does this solution different from directing moding the PoE injectors? Also do anyone know how to put back the cable into the Ethernet jacket after squeezing the eight wires into a single one?

Cheers.


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