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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:29 am 
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Ok I've started a dedicated thread for just this amazing discovery - running DC power through CAT6a/7/8 Ethernet cables. PoE (Power over Ethernet) DC. This term PoE DC I coined to refer to using Ethernet cables to deliver DC power to various audio devices - inserted between a LPS and a device. Also can be highly effective between a LPS and LT3045 box - more on that later.

I'd like to keep this thread very focused on just PoE DC - thanks!

The sonic improvements have been shocking - and continue to improve. My original discovery centered around using passive PoE injectors like below (and I still use but with some interesting enhancements) and low cost CAT 7 and CAT 8 cables. I'll go into more detail on that in a bit.

My newer experiments have entailed the much more complicated active form of PoE DC. My work is still in a very fluid state, but initial results have been excellent.

There has been so much misleading and false posts on that other forum - I felt it was really important to consolidate here the real information - gathered from the outstanding SQ results I have achieved and others as well.

Aside from the phenomenal SQ benefits - improving all aspect of audio reproduction - is the insanely lost cost. Less then $17 to start! This having to be the greatest audio bang for the buck ever reported. Yes the SQ results have been that amazing.

So into the details.
What is PoE DC? Simple just the use of easy and inexpensive Ethernet cables to run DC power from a power supply to a audio device. The PoE injectors make this super easy. With a DC socket on one end to a RJ45 jack at one end and a RJ45 jack/DC 2.1mm plug. Just plug your favorite CAT7 or CAT8 cable into the RJ45 jacks.

Here is all you need:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Set-Pairs-Po ... 1438.l2649
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The pack comes with both ends as a pair - so 5 pairs for $9.90 shipped - or roughly $1.98/pr.

Then choose your favorite CAT 7 or CAT 8 cable (more later on the best cables) like this one $7.09 shipped
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ugreen-CAT-7-F ... 2749.l2649


Just attach the DC output cable from your LPS, SMPS, LPS-1 and plug the end in to your device (under 1A draw) and you have it!

So what have been some of the comments on the amazing SQ results?
My experience posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172&start=3480
Quote:
The in room realism and presence (especially on the 5ft tall Maggies) is just spooky. Extraordinary bass depth and definition - something I thought only achievable with subs on the Maggie planars. The detail, focus, transparency and clarity beyond anything I have heard analog or digital produce (and I had spent north of $20K to try and achieve that). But it's the point source imaging that has surpassed any thing before - not flattish layered 2D cardboard cutouts - but musical point sources defined by a 3D radiated sound hanging in air. The frontal wave crisp, cleanly defined - without ringing, diffusion, or blur. But it's the recreated and uncovered extremely detailed back and side reflections - those subtle low level ambient clues uncovered and presented in unbelievable clarity and focus - that trick the Ear/Mind into creating the illusion of space. Wide and deep, cavernous deep - extending many feet beyond the rear wall - and the Maggies are already several feet in front of that same wall. Same for the sides. The recreated venue super imposed over the actual real physical space. And within this newly created space - life sized performers - projecting an inner lit quality. As if an audio spot light were shinning on them - not holograms, those fakish illusions - but living, breathing beings. There to perform just for me. Naturally tonally rich without artificial digital etch nor syrupy analog rounding. So no unrealistic sizzly hyper detail I hear from so many digital sources. But purity, an organic rightness - this is a tremendous audio magic trick to pull off - and here finally achieved in spades. I could go on and on describing the perfect relationship between initial impulse wave and the trailing harmonics. Or the speed of the micro dynamics - I like to call 'jump'. Or the the outstanding macro dynamics - that have me adjusting the volume to allow my amps headroom to keep up without compression. Running a Class 'A' solid state amp (up to 30 watts) that gradually biases over to A/B to 140 watts (8 ohms/280 watts 4 ohms)- this amp excels in that sweet Class 'A' sound over 90% of the music - but when the music calls for it - like on big drum strikes - the amp has the headroom to play uncompressed.

All this I have described partly due to the blackest black - lowest floor noise I have yet experienced. Absolutely trouncing anything that analog is capable of. But there is more going on here - a type of power related noise eliminated - allowing all these hyper sensitive femto clocks to do their job better, cleaner, the true Achilles heal of computer audio.


Some others:
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The Gotham GAC-4/1 UltraPro (star quad) microphone cable (mentioned by @lmitche in previous posts)

I got a 1m length to try out as a DC cable between the LPS-1.2 and uR. This cable has multiple shields and is hefty but flexible. I tried it with the individual wire shields connected together (both ends) but 'floating' from the overall external ones. They do not quite float as there is another double side aluminum coated thin layer between the inner and outer, about 1.5Kohms between them on the DMM. In this configuration the cable allowed a 'soft focus, tube-y' sound which was very pleasant to listen to. Very easy on the ear, seemed harmonically rich with full extension on both frequency extremes! This could benefit a 'hard/edgy' sounding system.

When the individual shields are connected to the outer ones the resulting sound became closer to that of the CAT7/8 in the same application (all twisted pairs in use as per my earlier posts) -sharper focus, clearer backgrounds and a good indication of a lower noise floor. A great cable in this application, however the instrument separation/definition within the 'sound stage' did not quite match the 1M UGREEN CAT7 flat I compared to!


Quote:
JMhifi12 wrote. Well my uGreen 1m cat 7 cables and passive PoE adaptors showed up yesterday, despite reading very favorable comments from folks who use this setup to power devices I was skeptical, how could adding more connections in the power path be a good thing. I was using shielded (JSSG mod) starquad power cables connected directly to PSU at one end and 2.1x5.5mm barrel connector at device end, now I was removing the direct connection at LPSU end installing a female 2.1mm connector and plugging a PoE adaptor into that, a ugreen cat 7 cable into the ethernet part at both ends of PoE's and the barrel of the second PoE into a Isoregen located at the dac (T+A dac 8 DSD) and a regen located at the PC. So I had now replaced 2 shielded direct connected (at LPSU) starquad cables with this mess of cat 7 and PoE adaptors. It took several on/off, plug/unplug cycles for the PC to see the Dac (that IR is a fussy piece) and I set a playlist to play with the amps turned off my goal to get 4-5 hours of burn in before sitting to listen.

Well it was now time to sit and listen and listen I did, it was a 6 hour session and for most of it I was playing music from my most played albums on Roon, the first 3 pages of albums, albums I know very well as I listen an average of 100 hours a month, not background listening, but sit and focus on music listening. Dumbfounded is all I can say this was a pretty big change, a very positive change. Wider, deeper soundstage with much more energy inside it. Backgrounds just disappeared and you are left with just the performers, more solid than before even at the edges of the sound stage, their presence was just more than anytime before. Leading edges of transients where fast and very well defined giving a nice dynamic jump to the sound from pre PoE. I detected no edges of digital glare at all to the sound 6 hours in I still wanted to listen, but the clock told me to go to bed (it was 2:30am). Overall the sound was more like I was at the performance than the performance playing on my stereo. It had more of a human quality to it, more dynamic, more transparent, more speed. Very pleased with this PoE chain and I have no idea why it does what it does. My next move is to direct connect the PoE adaptor to the LPSU's and add another one to power my SLC OS SSD inside my PC. I will also add some in series LT3045 regulators to step the voltage down from my LPSU from 7V to 5V and I will power the SSD, IR and regen at this voltage, that I expect will be another jump up based on comments of those who have done the same.


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JMhifi12 wrote:
Just reporting what works in my system........ So far

Received another order of uGreen cat 7 cables this allowed me to add a PoE to my OS SSD (Intel SLC). This now gave me three PoE's in my system. This one proved to be the biggest gain by far. Speed was my first thought, I thought it was pretty fast before, more now. Bass even tighter, faster more punch to it. Wider deeper more transparent soundstage, this was already one of my strong suits. Images more palpable and real within this stage. Again another notch up in the humanness quotient, as opposed to listening to your stereo. This might have been the best sound I have ever heard. The bar is obviously set very high for my next endeavor which I will report on after I spend some time listening to some variations of it. Until then.....


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Posted Saturday at 10:28 AM
Great feedback Quadman and perfectly details the jump in listening pleasure I experienced.

It is all a bit baffling but no doubt about what you will hear as a result.

From my end I managed to get the IR to work with the 1 metre IBRA round Cat7 with double foil shielding. Can be fussy but once it settles in it works reliably from then on.

I also soldered a flying lead to the gold shield on one end of the CAT7 cable and ran this to an earth i have from a spike in the garden, this to bleed off any energy that may be pulled out...no idea if this is what is happening but with 3 of these POE sets in my system the music is incredible.


https://www.computeraudiophile.com/foru ... p/?page=24
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On 5/12/2018 at 11:34 PM, AnotherSpin said:
Will this give any improvement with Regen first generation (amber Regen)? Thank you.

I put 2 PoE into my system at first, one at PC side going from LPSU to regen and one at dac side going to IR. Did both at same time so can't comment on change for each device but the effect was very huge in my system and I was using starquad cable with JSSG mod shield as my DC connectors before this change.

FYI as reported on the audiomart forum different brands of cat 7 cable sound different from one another, go figure.


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Yesterday my second order of uGreen cat 7 cables arrived and this allowed me to add a PoE on my OS SSD (Intel SLC SSD). Before adding this I made a better power cable to run from the SSD to just outside the case a star quad with JSSG shield, whereas before I just used a unshielded starquad and left apprx 6 inches of sata adapter cable run from it to the SSD. The PoE stayed outside the case. Well I listened past 3 am last night, I just couldn't turn the music off. This was a much larger jump in SQ than my first two PoE's which are at a regen at the PC and IR at the dac. Bass dynamics just jumped out of the system, tight fast impressive bass (My speakers are capable of 20 Hz in my room), Transparency went up quite a bit and it already was about as good as you could expect. Wider deeper stage with even more solid images within. Piano really grabbed my attention as I was more aware of the it's sound board then I remember ever hearing before. A naturalness that made me feel I was part of the event not sitting listening to the event played back on my system. Speed, dynamics and natural transparency thoughts kept running thru my head last night.

By the weekend I should have assembled my DIY PoE's using shielded RJ45's both with and without internal transformers, I'll report back after that.

Adding DC plugs to the stripped ends of cat 7 is what Larry proposed after taking his cat7 apart, nice report on that charles.


And a major initial doubter here:

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Turns out the ebay Supra seller lives in the neighborhood so he dropped the meter of CAT8 on my porch. Fabbed up a cable and... HOLY SMOKES! Now this is more like it. Just took the system sound to another level. Everything sounds so right and natural. I use Ahmad Jamal’s Ahamad’s Blues as a test track, and the long run of high piano notes in the beginning are now totally discernible, and not at all grating. Bass is big but defined. Timbre amazing and not at all muffled or strangled sounding. Incredible. So it says to me it’s the cable geometry at play, and quality does make a difference.

I have it wired brown and orange and their white counterparts as hot, and the blue and green and their white counterparts as neutral. I may rewire one connector sometime as the orange on one side wouldn’t strip right and is hanging on by a thread. The outer casing is very stiff and hard to remove, and the insides very tightly wound. The wire isn’t any thicker than the generics, but one can tell it’s of higher quality.

Man this sounds good! Listening to Thelonious’ Japanese Folk Song now. Like the players are in the room!


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Posted 30 minutes ago
Still sitting here listening, jaw dropped...


More to come - much more!

Cheers!

Update: The three basic version of PoE DC outlined
PoE DC.1 - Simple and inexpensive - the first iteration of this amazing SQ improvement. Simple tailed versions the PoE DC injectors:
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5prs for $9
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Set-Pairs-Po ... 2749.l2649

Coupled with either the 2M UGREEN CAT7 flat ($8) or 2M IBRA CAT7 ($11) on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBRA-6-Feet-CA ... 3b0f551226
https://www.ebay.com/itm/UGREEN-Etherne ... 2749.l2649
So the total cost for around $20. The SQ leap was pretty shocking. But this was only the beginning - with more SQ leaps ahead! :mrgreen:

Next came PoE DC.2:
Upgrading the PoE DC injectors to these single port discrete injectors - also very low cost around $10 for a pair.
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/PoE-Texas-Sing ... 2749.l2649

Then further CAT cable rolling to the Supra CAT 8 that was matched by the 2M UGREEN flat - both bettered by a large margin by the remarkable and unique Audio Quest 1.5M CAT7 Cinnamon - using sota high purity solid core copper/silver composite wires - Hard foamed PE dielectric.
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Next came the use of ferrite chokes to filter UHF RFI used on both ends of the CAT cable or just the end of the cable. These added to the refinement of the SQ, but need careful selection and placement to avoid a tampering of the treble energy.

Then in the final iteration of PoE DC.2 - wiring all 4prs of the CAT cable for PoE DC use. In my case I used the 8 port PoE DC injectors - but the single port could be easily modded to allow this as well. This allows full plug and play CAT cable rolling and no need to hack up a nice CAT cable in case you need to return it (this proved really useful on the 1M and 2M Supra CAT 8 cable I was able to return for a full refund).
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So we had PoE DC.1 with the tail injectors, then PoE DC.2 the single port and 8 port (wired to use all 4prs) injectors. But another SQ leap was achieved for me with the...

PoE DC.3 DUAL CAT
I rewired an 8 port to run all 4prs on each leg. One CAT cable for the v- and one for the v+.

Here shown with two UGREEN 26awg flat CAT 7's with Wurth Elec ferrite chokes n each end:
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https://www.digikey.com/products/en?key ... 32-3625-ND
Later replaced with a 1.5M AQ Cinnamon solid core silver/copper/Hard foamed PE CAT 7 on the v+ and a IBRA 2M CAT 7 on the v- (which I slightly preferred over the 2M UGREEN Flat on the v-).

Lastly rewired the DUAL CAT with 18 awg solid core Mundorf silver/gold/teflon vs Mil Spec grade silver plated stranded copper.
This has produced the best SQ yet. :mrgreen: The Mundorf being 18awg solid core silver/gold does need around 200 hrs burnin.

Finally the focus on additional CAT cable rolling in the v- and v+ positions, then to optimize the ferrite core types and locations.

Cheers!


Last edited by Tubelover2 on Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Watching with interest!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:02 am 
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Mr Underhill wrote:
Watching with interest!

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:40 am 
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Edit


Last edited by Tubelover2 on Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:53 am 
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How did I discover this PoE DC phenomena - a little history.

What originally lead me to even try this - came from a post on Amir's ASR (Audio Science Review) review of the LPS-1 and Alex's reply quoting JS regarding low impedance leakage blocking. That Ethernet had this implicit in it's design. The use of passive PoE injectors was just a design test to see if the CAT cable would even work. And BOY did they ever! But without the PoE Active low impedance leakage blocking - or maybe there is some blocking going on by the high impedance and higher inductance of the twisted pair small gauge wire used in Ethernet cables (more on that later.)

Alex's post (#112) on Amir's ASR review of the LPS-1 thread quoting John Swenson on Ethernet suppression of low impedance leakage - what the LPS-1/1.2 do.

Here's the link and quote:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... ents.1849/
JS paraphased by Alex on ASR LPS-1 thread:
Quote:
For high frequency signals such as Ethernet the existing transformers are sufficient to block the low impedance components of leakage. Leakage even from SMPS is still significantly lower in frequency than Ethernet signaling so a properly designed transformer will have a high enough impedance at the lower frequencies to block the low impedance components, but NOT the high impedance components. SO you still need to shunt the high impedance components and the transformer will take care of the low.


So going back to this original idea of getting a LPS-1/1.2 type of low impedance leakage blocking - in a active or semi-active PoE DC chain - would that provide even greater SQ benefits? Surplant the purpose of the LPS1/1.2? Use just an el-cheapo R-core LPS, a few LT3045's with this now active PoE DC in between.

There are issues of DC to DC converter noise - the transformers on Ethernet's data lines do not work for PoE. But that noise would be dealt with by a couple of in series LT3045's with their massive wide, high and ultra high freq PSRR. So my experiments in using active PoE progress.

Informed intelligent curiosity, and a 'try it and see' attitude and the persistence to spend the money and time to explore - yielded these fantastic results. That I freely share with the audio world!

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:05 am 
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For those new to trying PoE DC - here are the best CAT 7 and CAT 8 cables to try:

Most of these are very inexpensive $6-$8. The Supra CAT 8 being the most expensive I'd recommend at this point.

So here are my current ranked cables with links to purchase on Ebay.

1) UGREEN CAT 7 flat 26awg - 1M $7.09 600Mhz
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ugreen-CAT-7-F ... 2749.l2649
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2) Supra CAT 8 round 26aewg - .5M $49 2000Mhz Uses a combination of foil and braid shielding.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supra-CAT-8-ST ... 2749.l2649
Technical Info
Cable design

Cable 4 pair, Cat 8 S/STP PIMF
Lead area 0.23 / 26 mm2 / AWG
Number of strands 7 pieces
Lead material Bright drawn oxygen-free 5N copper
Insulation Air-injected, low capacitance PE
Inner shield Aluminium foil
Outer shield Tin plated, oxygen-free 5N copper braid
Jacket PE (FRHF)
Outer dimension Ø 6 mm
Flame retardancy Yes

Electrical performance

Resistance 145 Ohm / km
Capacitance 43 pF / m
Bandwidth 2,000 MHz
Skew @ 100 MHz 5 / 100 ns / m
Impedance 100 Ohm
Velocity factor 0.8x C (speed of light)
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3)UGREEN CAT 7 Round - 28awg .5M $6.89 600Mhz OFC Copper
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ugreen-High-Sp ... 2749.l2649

4)IBRA CAT 7 Round - gauge? 1M $7.84
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBRA-3-Feet-CA ... 2749.l2649

None of other many CAT6a, CAT7, CAT8 cables I tried would I recommend including BJC, Amazon Basic, Tera Grand, Audio Quest, Vandesail ,etc...

One new unique cable to arrive soon - also called UGREEN flat CAT7 - but with only 32awg copper wires. So this will be by far the smallest gauge CAT7 yet.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/UGREEN-Cat7-Et ... 2749.l2649
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Cheers and Happy PoEing!


Last edited by Tubelover2 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Now to the 'theory' of why SQ improves so much by simply inserting a length of CAT 7/8 PoE DC into an existing DC cable from a LPS or LPS-1 to a powered device or LT3045 box.

In fact the overwhelming reports of fantastic, 'jaw dropping' SQ results from using PoE DC fly in the face of all the electrical engineering commonly accepted theories. And it causing a huge level of cognitive dissonance amount that crowd! :lol:

With their natural defense - 'it all in your imagination!' :lol: :lol:
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14 hours ago, RamDawg said:
Troll


Any product that is sensitive to the DC supply cord is a poorly designed product. Industrial audio Consultant **** Pierce pointed that out two decades ago, about expensive hi-fi digital products that were sensitive to digital interconnect cables.

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15 hours ago, Speedskater said:
By having such a screwed-up system that just touching or changing anything, changes the sound.


No, not screwed up ... just much closer to optimum, which means every deviation from 'correctness' is more obvious ... if you have a window in the home which is generally dirty, and you're used to looking through it in that condition, varying the muckiness doesn't really change the experience - if then you go to some effort to make it truly clean then every last area which hasn't been truly wiped clean starts to really stand out - you can go nuts trying to extinguish the smallest bit of dirt that manages to resist your efforts to remove it!

This is the world of optimising audio ... the better it gets, the more precise work is required to 'clean' to the next level ... so, you have choices: accept a general OK'ness to the sound, be happy with that; or aim to get to ever finer degrees of apparent quality - I have never reached a point where more couldn't be retrieved from the recording; it's up to the individual.

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14 hours ago, fas42 said:
No, not screwed up ... just much closer to optimum, which means every deviation from 'correctness' is more obvious ..


Nope, you are writing about a product that has a poorly designed power supply.


But this works from super expensive LPS like the Paul Hynes SR7, to the Uptone (Dual bank Ultra Caps that were designed to eleminate leakages) LPS-1 and LPS-1.2 to TeraDak DC30W's, and other terrific power supplies.

And feeding devices as diverse as LT3045 (these are LDO regulators that some - like myself *who discovered and blogged about them a year ago* insert in their digital chains to filter out noise on the DC lines), to Iso Regens, USB Hubs, DDC's Like the Singxer SU-1 and F-1, Mirco Rendus, even SSD drives, etc...

These all can't be 'poorly designed products'!

And we are talking about 0Hz DC - right?

Well maybe this DC power is a lot more complicated then suspected.
From this thread - John Swenson
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/foru ... s/?page=40

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On 1/5/2018 at 12:26 AM, jean-michel6 said:
John ,

Thank's for all the good information that you are sharing with us .
I have ordered and will be testing the 4S6 canard cable that you recommend for my DC cables .
However i have one question which puzzle me . One of your explanation for the good result for this cable is the fact he has by construction a low inductance . This is a very good point for cable that carry AC current but for DC current only the Ohm law and the resistance should apply to calculate the impedance of the cable?


Thank to shed some light on my question ?

But it is NOT pure DC. Digital devices in particular have rapidly varying current loads, the rise or fall time of the current change can be quite fast. Those rapid current changes through the inductance of the cable can create significant voltage changes across the cable.

For something like a preamp the load current may be very constant, and then the inductance doesn't matter, but for digital devices low inductance can make a big difference.

John S.


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On 5/15/2017 at 2:55 PM, Ralf11 said:

I am also not clear on the benefit. You want low inductance to reduce voltage in DC power supply cable to a DAC because the voltage might cause noise in the DAC, i.e change the output. That would mean bits would need to be flipped, or jitter introduced.

But how much voltage change on the DC power supply is needed to cause either? And how much Inductance results in what level of voltage?

Also how strongly is the Inductance related to ripple in the DC power cord? Why not just reduce ripple?



It's not ripple or noise from the regulator that is being filtered, it is changes in load current causing a voltage drop across the inductance of the cable. This is particularly important for digital devices due to large load changes that can be very rapidly changing, thus causing significant voltage change across the cable, even if the regulator is perfect.

Many devices have power circuits that are not very good at rejecting rapidly changing supply voltages, so such changes developed across DC cables can easily wind up on parts inside the device such as clocks, analog circuits, DAC chips etc.

Non of this is big enough to cause bit flips, that's not what any of this is about, it IS about letting those bits do their thing with the least amount of disturbance as possible.

John S.


But could it be that HIGH inductance is better for DC powered digital devices!

Since this twisted pair of CAT7/8 Ethernet cables sound so much better then even the best star quad JSSG/JSSG 360 cables:

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On 12/15/2017 at 3:52 PM, sandyk said:

That isn't always strictly true. That's why power transmission lines use very high voltages, and transformers later on to step down the voltages again.
My own take on DC leads, is that provided the Output Impedance of the voltage Regulator etc. is VERY low, that a 2 foot length from say a piece of 2 core 7.5A mains cable scrounged from a redundant lead will be close to as good as it gets, without any fancy tinkering that you guys (and John S.) talk about.;)
Other than the reliability factor, neither should it matter about using fancy and expensive DC plugs, especially if those used are of the lockable type. Some Microphone plugs and sockets make fine DC connectors.
e.g.
http://www.altronics.com.au/p/p0953-2-p ... connector/


I've been doing measurements of this, they show that at least for digital circuits, the inductance of the cable is probably more important than the raw DC resistance. Many digital devices do not draw a continuous current, the load can fluctuate rapidly and by a fair amount. The impedance of the cable at the higher frequencies (above line frequency) can be significant. A piece of 14 AWG romex has a much higher impedance than a 20AWG starquad.

When I started measuring all this I was rather stunned by how much impedance regular cables add the higher load frequencies. The results at the load are MANY MANY times worse than the regulator itself. Starquad has 9 times lower inductance than zipcord, that makes a big difference, even for short cables.


John S.


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JohnSwenson
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Sure the length of the cable matters. The inductance of the cable is directly proportional to the length of the cable. The starquad helps by having 1/3 the inductance per given length VS a twisted pair or coax. But if you have 3 times the length of starquad as twisted pair you have the same inductance.

John S.


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So far I have been using 24AWG wire for my tests and it has been working extremely well. As far as I can tell there are two issues: long length wire and very high frequency isolation. The 24 has worked well for the short cables I have built (up to 6ft), For really long ones you may need to go with thicker wire, but I have not done any experimentation on that so I really don't know for sure.

For isolating very high frequencies (say gigaHz stuff) the inductance of the wire is probably very important, so this tends to point to thicker wire, but there may be many issues at hand there, I would have to delve much further into that before I could make a recommendation.

John S.


So we have very small gauge (26awg to 32awg) twisted pairs far out performing large gauge star quad even with JSSG!

So the only possible explanation would be that HIGHER inductance and HIGHER resistance is the special effect causing this huge SQ improvement!

Even on short (1M) runs of CAT7/8 I detect voltage drops - not significant when using the PoE DC fed into a LT3045 BEFORE powering any audio digital device.

Here is a PoE Voltage loss calculator:
http://poe-world.com/Calculator/poe-calcus.php

So if you are running a 1M (3Ft) CAT7 copper over just 2prs suppling 5VDC@1A in you will see an approx loss of 0.6VDC - or 4.94VDC out.
That's some pretty significant resistance (0.0609 (Ohms) for such a short cable. I use these LT3045 boxes I make in between the audio device and the PoE DC output. They have a wide input voltage range - to produce a very stable output voltage. So you can have your LPS-1 set to a higher voltage and the end device will see the correct - non-reduced voltage. For example a 5VDC LT3045 can accept a voltage from 8.5VDC to 5VDC without issue.

If you are using longer, say 2M runs CAT7/8 and not LT3045 - you may have to set your LPS voltage a bit higher. Most devices can operate fine within a small range of the intended voltage - so 1M or less should be no issue without any LPS adjustment or need for an intervening LT3045.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:06 am 
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Great discussion on using ferrites to eliminate RF noise vs just blocking or shielding it.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-e ... 3/page-226

I have had great success in using them in combination with the PoE DC passive cables. Both before the PoE DC - on the LPS DC cable and even after the PoE DC. One great advantage of the unshielded wire PoE injector pigtails.

But the selection and optimization of which material ferrites to use is critical. They come in many flavors - with different targeted freq ranges.

Great quote from the fellow on the Chord DAVE/BLU thread:
Quote:
Triode User
Triode User
Member of the Trade: WAVE High Fidelity
Your first paragraph discussing ferrites seems to be confusing audio signal (where ferrites are not normally recommended) and digital signal where ferrites can remove unwanted RF noise. A high end (I assume you are defining high end as expensive) cable has very little way of removing RF. Sure, it might have shielding against RF but once RF is in the signal as per Blu2 then a cable without ferrites is unlikely to be able to remove RF (unless you know of any cable configuration or mechanism within a cable that can do that but I don’t). Also, don’t forget that the specific ferrites being used need to be selected to target the frequency of noise that is to be reduced. There are many differently designed and performing ferrites. Some may have little effect on the RF noise we are dealing with in Blu2 and if you have tried them then you might not have had much success.


So it's not as easy as just ordering some random ferrites off Amazon and slapping them on.

The above HF thread is mostly concerned with BNC and USB cables, where ferrites do work well - see the iFi Mercury 3.0 USB cable.
Quote:
The power of RF3
Most standard USB cables do not address RF issues. Most ‘off the shelf ‘ versions that are fitted with filters work over too narrow a range. And even then, this is only fitted at the ends of the cables, leaving the length of the cable to act as an antennae.
The Mercury3.0 is fitted with three custom-made metal oxide ceramic RF noise silencers. Each has a different effective range so that they greatly broaden the range over which RF noise is silenced. Furthermore, the middle silencer is adjustable and can be moved along the whole length of the cable. This then “detunes” the antennae formed by the cable, depending on the conditions and requirements in the system. The other 2 silencers should be kept as close to each respective end as possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Haven't played with ferrites in years. Lack of specifics back then regarding affected frequency range was frustrating. So sounds like a good time for a revisit. Really intrigued to see where this goes...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:03 pm 
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wushuliu wrote:
Haven't played with ferrites in years. Lack of specifics back then regarding affected frequency range was frustrating. So sounds like a good time for a revisit. Really intrigued to see where this goes...

Yes but a lot more complicated to do right then it seems at first blush...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Ferrites have been a good addition to my system. I have one right at the end of the power POE chain, before Singxer F1 and one more at the end of the usb cable. At the beggining they have the effect of apparently reducing dynamics but it's because of the lower noise floor modulation. But still, some people don't like them because a higher noise floor spices up and brightens the sound, according to R. Watts (Chord Electronics).

Actually, that is what I think the POE discovery is doing to my system, lowering the noise floor, but in a much more noticeable way than ferrites. The result is longer listening hours, no ear fatigue and a more organic, enjoyable sound, but without giving up detail and resolution.

I'm glad you are back, Mr. Rob!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:41 am 
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totoxio wrote:
Ferrites have been a good addition to my system. I have one right at the end of the power POE chain, before Singxer F1 and one more at the end of the usb cable. At the beggining they have the effect of apparently reducing dynamics but it's because of the lower noise floor modulation. But still, some people don't like them because a higher noise floor spices up and brightens the sound, according to R. Watts (Chord Electronics).

Actually, that is what I think the POE discovery is doing to my system, lowering the noise floor, but in a much more noticeable way than ferrites. The result is longer listening hours, no ear fatigue and a more organic, enjoyable sound, but without giving up detail and resolution.

I'm glad you are back, Mr. Rob!
Thanks! D0 you know which ferrites you are using? 61's?

The HF DAVE/BLU thread is interesting - but this one may be completely over the top!
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Not sure if that's a audio cable or a weapon! :mrgreen: Bet it weighs a kilo.

Not only is the composite of the ferrites important but so is the placement. iFi's Mercury 3.0 USB allows the ferrites to moved along the cable.

They also mention this Clearer Audio cable on the thread:
https://www.cleareraudio.com
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How's this for shielding!
Quote:
6N OCC Silver (99.9999%) MSS (multi strand solid) conductors; Foamed Polyethylene dielectric; Six layer silver/copper shielding system (Dual-layer copper foil, 6N OCC Silver-plated Copper (99.9999%) braid, Dual-layer copper foil, 6N OCC Silver-plated Copper (99.9999%) braid); 2 x Super Suppressors; WBT 0152 Ag (Pure Silver) nextgen RCAs / Oyaide SLSB BNCs (featuring 4N pure silver centre signal pin).
Approx $650 not cheap!

With special low freq ferrites they call 'Super Suppressors. I believe these are special low freq ferrites (these I have used with great success on my 'Epitome+' AC cable as well - but are very expensive). And have had good success on the PoE DC cable injectors.

Even so some have added more ferrites to these already expensive cables and have had good results. The DAVE/BLU seems to emit a lot of UHF noise - in the 2GHz range.
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They don't make a DC cable unfortunately - or maybe fortunately for the wallet.
Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:54 am 
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My current thinking is the 'perfect' DC cable is PoE DC with a unique set of multiple composite ferrites in optimized locations.

:mrgreen:
Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:02 am 
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Meanwhile over at the hijacked CA thread (read pages 24-27)
You are treated to great audio DC cable wisdom posts like this:

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Audiophile Neuroscience
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9 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Wazzat??


Reductionism is an approach to understanding the nature of complex things by reducing them to the interactions of their parts, or to simpler or more fundamental things.
Physicalism - the philosophical position that everything which exists is no more extensive than its physical properties, that everything in the world can be reduced down to its fundamental physical, or material, basis.
Fragmentalism contends that the world is indeed composed of separable parts, and that it is chiefly knowable through the study of these component parts, rather than through wholes
Reductionist Fallacy occurs when it is assumed that there is a single, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes.
That component bits of an audio signal must explain audibilty or its corollary if it can't be measured it can't be heard. The premises are compelling and logical but nonetheless invoke reductionist mechanisms and inductive reasoning which might be fallacious.
It could be argued that such propositions are examples of inductive reasoning starting with specific observations and measures and forming general conclusions (whereas deductive reasoning works from 'top-down'). In either approach, hypothesis is born and needs to be tested.
...as I see it, anyway.
I hope that helps all those folks there improve the SQ of their systems. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I can see why I was booted out - all I wanted to talk about was DC audio cables - how un-intellectual of me.

All I know is my system, with my latest PoE DC iteration, is providing the most extraordinary musical experience of my life. :D

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:05 am 
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I've ordered a 2M Supra CAT 8 to test versus the .75M I have.

And a 1M Ghent Audio ET01 Belden 1303E CAT6A Ethernet(JSSG) Cable - not so much for the JSSG treatment I don't place a lot of value in - but the better CAT.7 Field plug metal connectors and the to try a CAT cable with 23awg wires.
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I want CAT cables that are tested for freq bandwidth and crosstalk vs the vagaries of a DIY cable. From what I've read high bandwidth CAT 6a, 7, and 8 are very tricky to build right. Ghent does test these.
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Quote:
Features & Specifications
Belden 1303E CatSnake Ethernet Cable with JSSG loop, CAT6A, Single(1pc)
Purely handmade craftwork, genuine material and solid substance
Cable: Belden 1303E CAT6A CatSnake Cable, support 10GBase-T, 1000Base-T, 100 Base-T...
Connector: OEM CAT.7 Field plug, support 10GBase-T (10 Gigabit Ethernet)/600Mhz, max 23awg wires


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